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DairyHick
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DairyHick
134 posts
Nomad

Do you people feel its right for the government to set very high tax rates while also giving out very comfortable government benefits to their non-working population. *Cough* *Cough* Europe!!! *Cough* *Cough*

For example, I used to live in The Netherlands. My father made quite a big salary of 9,000 Euros a month. However, he lost 60% of his salary to taxes. That is 5400 Euros a month, leaving him with 3600 Euros!

I feel that these high tax rates destroy peoples incentive to work hard. When giving out quite comfortable government benefits (about 1200 Euros a month) to the non-working community will surely create a society full of lazy ^%!^@'s.

No wonder Europe is in its terrible condition today.

  • 38 Replies
partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

The chine government does keep try to keep its currency relatively weak in order to attract international trade partners. However they do not print extra money to do so.


oh my bad. thats the expression we use in dutch for this "cheat". i thought it was the same in english. i didn't mean actualy printing physical money.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

it happens to every1. when it happens to you, your happy they help you.
and it doesn't only help them. it helps me aswell because now i don't have to live whit noisy drunk bums around my house. it's just beter for society to have every1 living in a house and atleast looking good enoufg to get some sort of a job. and not have lots of outcasts that are just doomed for their lifes.


Yes, but 60% is a an extremely high number. It's a discentive for people to climb higher, since if I earn less, I keep more of my money.

our country is very small. still we are whit 16.5 million people.
so ground is very expensive. (much people - not much ground) a appartment of 400 euro may sound much to you but there is not much that costs less. maybe 330 if your lucky but thats probably a student appartment whit only 1 kitchen and shower etc.


Wait till you come here. A simple 4 room flat can cost nearly 300,000 USD if I'm not wrong.

it's just being social so that every1 can live in a house.
i don't see why you would want other people to live on the street.


In times of crisis, I wouldn't want to see my hard earned cash going to someone else. I slogged for it, and I paid in sweat and blood for it, why should so much go to other people? I don't mind if my money is going to people who are actively looking for jobs, or are just retrenched, but it's absurd if I'm paying for bummers who live off like parasites. As in the case of some countries.

if you don't do those things then you don't get any of it. this way the government keeps you busy in times you normaly easly would give up. and it creates ALOT of extra jobs in the government itself aswell.


More jobs which require more taxpayers money to fund their salaries. I come from a nation which is a penny pincher, and I like it that way, and my attitude towards the welfare state has already been formed since young. I work hard to get up to the top, and I don't really appreciate so much leaking away.
partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

Yes, but 60% is a an extremely high number.


ofcours it doesn't all only go to that. maybe 5% of the 60% go to that. their is way more we get in return. medical care costs way more tax money. and we are the only country in the world that have to pay tax for water management. and not because our government is greedy but because our country needs to protect itself from the water all the time.

if I earn less, I keep more of my money.


no,
let's take the example of my earlyer posts about tax rates:
if you earn 4000 then you pay 20% over those 4000.
if you earn 7000 then you pay 20% over the 1st 4000. and 40% over the next 3000.
if you earn 9000 then you pay 20% over the 1st 4000. 40% over the 2nd 3000 and 60% over the last 3000.
so it's never that you keep more money by earning more.
they only thing that lots of dutch people do if they earn just above the 4000 for example is. that they say to their boss that they do not want that money as loan but as a gift. so they stay under the 4000 earnings.

Wait till you come here. A simple 4 room flat can cost nearly 300,000 USD if I'm not wrong.

but the netherlands is not singapore, we can handle it this way. it probably wont work for your country. thats why i like diversity.

In times of crisis,

crisises come and go. their have been nearly 20 crisises the last 200 year and more then 200 since the 1st real big company was made (VOC)
we don't need to look at now we need to look at the future. if we only look at what is now. then we are already to late for what is happening.

it's absurd if I'm paying for bummers who live off like parasites

they do not get money here. the government is very well controling people that they actualy have the right to get this money.
and not like a 5 min test once a year where the people have to go to by themself. it gets realy good controled.

More jobs which require more taxpayers money to fund their salaries.

and giving people work to do. so they can function in society and not become outcasts. thats right.

work hard to get up to the top, and I don't really appreciate so much leaking away.

it's not like it's easy to get rich in the netherlands. neither is it anyware but. when you have lost your income somhow i rather be in my country then yours.
it's just never perfect and we both live different and we both like how it is for ourself. i c no problem just don't come living here and i don't go live there =P

extra info:
for all questions about getting money to study in the netherlands.
here is a link to the international page of the organization that will give you this money.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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Shepherd

I come from a nation which is a penny pincher, and I like it that way, and my attitude towards the welfare state has already been formed since young.


Perhaps you should do some research into the quality of life you enjoy in such a nation as opposed to some of those 'welfare states' you don't like. You may be surprised to find that nations who help their citizens more also tend to produce a happier, healthier, and more productive citizenry.

And as an aside, what is "young" to you, and how can you set your opinion on complex socio-economic principles when you don't have all the facts, or indeed the ability to even comprehend many of them?
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

Perhaps you should do some research into the quality of life you enjoy in such a nation as opposed to some of those 'welfare states' you don't like. You may be surprised to find that nations who help their citizens more also tend to produce a happier, healthier, and more productive citizenry.


I already have, and researched on my country's lack of a welfare system and what we have to replace it with, weighing the pros and the cons. As it is, our quality of life is rather high and admirable given our development in 50 years. For example, we're in the top 30 on the HDI scale, and above quite a few welfare states to boot. I don't actually need to be told to research on other welfare states, thank you very much.

Young, as in since I was a teen. We all go through classes on our national systems and such from that age and I think that poised on entering the working age, I'm able to make my own decisions on whether or not I like the welfare state or not.
partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

lack of a welfare system and what we have to replace it with,


plz. tell me.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

For example, Singapore doesn't dole out money to the unemployed whilst they find jobs, but rather, sends them for training courses, and has pumped in 3.6 billion USD in 2010 to stave off the crisis. A little less than 200,000 workers have gone through such a scheme, and our unemployment rate has been maintained at 2% which is economically ideal.

The government doesn't subsidise housing so people can afford houses they couldn't have under normal circumstances, but it does build extensive public housing called ''Housing Development Board''(HDB) flats that most people live in. There are various measures in place to prevent speculation and hence, the rising of prices, and new couples are given generally cheaper flats to purchase. And it does subsidise heavily for really destitute people so they can rent the cheaper but more cramp HDBs.

As for ''ensions'', in effect, the government forces us to save by deducting some of our salaries every month, with a further contribution from employers. That means, if I earn 3000 dollars, perhaps 500 is taken away and an added percentage of that 500 is given by the employer to the fund. It might stymie options to invest or save in banks with higher interest, but when many of us retire and get back that lump sum, from personal experience (relatives and such), they have largely been grateful for it.

nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

Of course our system won't work when used in other countries, mainly because we're small, hence having less of an employment problem, so to each his own.

partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

but rather, sends them for training courses


we have also lots of of training courses =)

and has pumped in 3.6 billion USD in 2010 to stave off the crisis.


we pumped more then 50 billion in the economy during this crisis for ourself and around the 90 billion to help greece.
140 billion

but it does build extensive public housing called ''Housing Development Board''(HDB) flats that most people live in.

so it doesn't costs any1 300.000 usd to have a roof then.

it does subsidise heavily for really destitute people

we barely have those people so we give every1 the subsidy. no1 can say but they got money and i don't because every1 is able to get it. (it's not a subsidy in the netherlands it's how we call it "mortgage interest deduction&quot

As for ''ensions'', in effect, the government forces us to save by deducting some of our salaries every month, with a further contribution from employers.


same happens here =)
but not the same way.
we just put the 500 away and don't touch it till we are old.
and getting intrest over the amount all the years aswell.

Of course our system won't work when used in other countries, mainly because we're small, hence having less of an employment problem, so to each his own.


what do those believers say again .... ow yea thats right..

AMAN.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

we pumped more then 50 billion in the economy during this crisis for ourself and around the 90 billion to help greece.
140 billion


The 3,6 billion is exclusively for job upgrading. Has the Netherlands done so? Or does pumping in money refer to quantitative easing?

we just put the 500 away and don't touch it till we are old.
and getting intrest over the amount all the years aswell.


Then isn't it the same?

we barely have those people so we give every1 the subsidy. no1 can say but they got money and i don't because every1 is able to get it. (it's not a subsidy in the netherlands it's how we call it "mortgage interest deduction&quot


We don't have many of them here as well, and we have many networks of volunteers to help them out, they're mostly the older folk who have no kids to help them. I myself volunteer weekly to go down and check on them, take them out to carnivals, wash their flats, and such. We might not have a welfare state like Europe, but we do help each other out via charities, and many Singaporean students are encouraged to help out.

so it doesn't costs any1 300.000 usd to have a roof then.


It does cost us that much. It's something that bothers us muchly, and has been exacerbated by an upsurge of foreign workers buying whole blocks of flats, our incomes not rising enough, and because the government hasn't been building enough recently. It used to cost us 20,000 USD in the 1970s, but the prices have risen to 240,000 - 300,000 today, 300,000 being the high end five room flats, or mansionettes. If the government does have to be more generous, most of us would like to see it go towards the housing problem, which caused an upset in the elections last year.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

And sorry for perhaps being too vigorous in my reply that I don't need to be taught anything Walker. I've seen Singapore assaulted too much in magazines by authors from welfare states who claim our country neglects its poor to bear.

partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

The 3,6 billion is exclusively for job upgrading. Has the Netherlands done so?


dunno, i think ive never seen those exclusive numbers. i would need time to check that out.

Then isn't it the same?

they do not force us. it's for our own best so we all do it. the government only help a little by not asking tax on pension fondses.

we have many networks of volunteers

we don't have much volunteers. and we lack people that even want to do this work for money aswell. it's a shame but it is how it is.

It does cost us that much.


you don't have a renting system. where you simply rent a house? =S
you don't have to own it. you just have to live in it.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

We do have renting systems, but many of us dream of owning a house, and not renting it, partly because we're materialistic, and partly because we're pragmatic (HDB prices always rise, so it's a good investment).

We have a weird culture where every guy aims for the 5Cs (Cash, Condo, Car, Credit Card, Country Club membership), which attests to the unstated Singaporean cultural ethos of materialistic obsession and aspiration to achieve these things in order to impress others, both socially, economically and sociologically. My parents for example could have easily just rented the house we live in now, but they chose to work for years to pay it off.

partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

We do have renting systems, but many of us dream of owning a house, and not renting it, partly because we're materialistic, and partly because we're pragmatic


same thing here.

We have a weird culture where every guy aims for the 5Cs (Cash, Condo, Car, Credit Card, Country Club membership)


same here, except that instead of a credit card we use debit cards.

whit credit cards you go along the way of usa for example where the consumers alone have 2,5 trillion usd debt. (just under "us total debt")
when you use debit cards your are not giving away the money you don't own yet and may never get. you only spend the money you actualy have.
it's just beter
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

I'll leave anyone who wants to decide which is better to do so himself.

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