ForumsWEPRSchool Censors Second Grader's John 3:16 Message

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macfan1
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macfan1
421 posts
Nomad

Here is the link to the article. I think it isn't right for the school to violate free speech.

http://charismanews.com/us/32866-school-censors-second-graders-john-316-message

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macfan1
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macfan1
421 posts
Nomad

Oh sorry about the title. And no, I was not plagiarizing.

thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Farmer

Stuff like this always leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Obsession with political correctness is partially the culprit here, but . . . ggaaaaaaaahhh. Just let people express themselves however people want to.

stephenking
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stephenking
2,413 posts
Nomad

Macfan, this is the first (and probably last) topic I will ever agree with you on. I would be *kinda* pissed and just throw the message away, but this is a bit extreme.

thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
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Farmer

Macfan, this is the first (and probably last) topic I will ever agree with you on. I would be *kinda* pissed and just throw the message away, but this is a bit extreme.


Just in an effort to derail and add some spice to this conversation (because consensus is boring), WHY exactly would it piss you off at all?
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

I will just give what another report on this subject says. It has the district trying to explain their reasoning behind the actions.

'The district also had concerns that the Christian content could lead others with negative messages to also distribute to fellow classmates. After all, once one person is allowed to hand out a message, any individual can then tout his or her values, Holzman argued.

"Otherwise we would be allowing anybody to give out personal messages or values," Holzman explained. "If somebody wanted to put anti-Semitism in there ... people would be outraged by that. If kids have a choice, it's a different scenario. But in this case we're talking about handing it out to everyone in the class, and they donât have a choice."'

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/wi-elementary-school-confiscates-bans-2nd-graders-christian-themed-valentines/

macfan1
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macfan1
421 posts
Nomad

Had the school heard anything about free speech, and freedom of religion? What is wrong with them.

Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,826 posts
Duke

Had the school heard anything about free speech, and freedom of religion? What is wrong with them.


So do you just post things and not read the responses people give?

Mage just gave a very compelling reason why this action is not a violation of free speech (at least as it is currently understood relative to the US Constitution). I think that the school district's reasons are a) justified, and b) clearly falling within the notable exceptions to free speech.
Kasic
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Kasic
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Jester

I agree in general with their decision...just not how it was gone about. I do not think that it's appropriate to include messages like that and parents should have more common sense. Would a Christian parent want their kid bringing home valentines that said "Allah is almighty, and loves you?" No, they'd have a problem with it. They'd rage up and down the hallways of the school that the school is allowing Muslims to proselytize their children. The whole thing would be a fiasco. So why are you all saying, "This isn't right!" and "There should be freedom of religion and speech here!" Is it because you're Christian? Is it because you think that there isn't a time and place for things, and a time and place to not do things?

I don't agree with how they confiscated the valentines. I don't think it was fair to the child who had good intentions and that the parent should have known better. I don't know what the best solution would have been, letting it go for a year but making sure all parents were aware that such messages, while heartfelt and good-intentioned, were not appropriate in a public school setting. There may be no best solution.

I think the school is right in not allowing the messages, I just don't agree with their actions.

thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
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Farmer

Mage just gave a very compelling reason why this action is not a violation of free speech (at least as it is currently understood relative to the US Constitution). I think that the school district's reasons are a) justified, and b) clearly falling within the notable exceptions to free speech.


Anti-Semitism doesn't seem like a valid counterexample in this situation, though. Doesn't anti-Semitism fall under hate speech, whereas most Bible verse wouldn't?
Kasic
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Kasic
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Jester

Anti-Semitism doesn't seem like a valid counterexample in this situation, though. Doesn't anti-Semitism fall under hate speech, whereas most Bible verse wouldn't?


If they allow anyone to say anything, then it's a possibility that it might show up. And there are definitely parts of the Bible that could be called hate mongering.
thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
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Farmer

If they allow anyone to say anything, then it's a possibility that it might show up. And there are definitely parts of the Bible that could be called hate mongering.


Yes, there are parts of the Bible that could qualify as hate speech, but those're irrelevant. This kid was sharing John 3:16 ("For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life&quot. I'm not saying that the schools should allow anyone to say anything--but John 3:16 and anti-Semitic rhetoric are not anywhere close to the same thing. I'm not seeing the slippery slope that's supposed to be here.
Kasic
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Kasic
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Jester

but John 3:16 and anti-Semitic rhetoric are not anywhere close to the same thing.


No, they aren't. Which is why I think the school was wrong to take such harsh actions for a relatively harmless message.

I'm not seeing the slippery slope that's supposed to be here.


Okay, let's say this. A kid writes, "roses are red, violets are blue, at least you're better than a Jew, I love you! "

Seems harmless right? Oh wait...

It doesn't have to be a bible verse. It could just be anything. Someone could bring in personal beliefs that "sound" nice, until you think about it. I can easily imagine a homophobic Bible verse about love, warning people to not fall into sin.
Moegreche
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Moegreche
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Duke

Anti-Semitism doesn't seem like a valid counterexample in this situation, though. Doesn't anti-Semitism fall under hate speech, whereas most Bible verse wouldn't?


The reason you give is a very good disanalogy between the two examples. But once we realize that hate speech is not the only exception to free speech, the analogy would still hold. (Keep in mind that hate speech is not expressly excluded, but rather it is usually excluded as incitement to violence).

In this particular case, it is consistent with previous Supreme Court rulings protection the right of a school to censor its students. When the speech that is in question can interfere with the school discipline or the rights of others. This valentine evangelisation meets both criteria. The school had a specific policy against Christian valentines - and this is probably because such actions offended students in the past. But even if one considers the first point to be trivial, the latter still has merit.
thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
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Farmer

Seems harmless right? Oh wait...


I don't think you're understanding what I mean. I see the ISSUE with the anti-Semitic rhetoric in and of itself, yes, but I don't see how the small step of allowing this religious expression could lead to something as extreme as open anti-Semitism in a second grade classroom.

This valentine evangelisation meets both criteria.


How? The interference was created when the rule was enforced, not when the valentine was shared. Can't argue with the second point, though--assuming that such actions actually HAVE offended students in the past, that is.
Kasic
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Kasic
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Jester

I don't see how the small step of allowing this religious expression could lead to something as extreme as open anti-Semitism in a second grade classroom.


Maybe it wouldn't, maybe it would, people do strange things. It could easily however lead to conflict. Going back to my example of a Muslim giving a Christian a valentine with a verse from the Koran. Let's say it mentioned Allah. The Christian kid says, "Thanks, but who's Allah?" The Muslim kid responds, "He created everything, didn't you know?" To which the first kid..."No, God created everything." And you can imagine what happens from there.

Also, what if a Jewish kid brought home valentines with Hindu scripture? Would the parent be thrilled about that? No. It's in everyone's self interest to keep such personal things out of the holiday, especially in such a public setting as school.
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