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toemas
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toemas
339 posts
Farmer

Is abortion ok? I donât think so. The babies that these people are killing is wrong, some people say that itâs not a person that itâs a bag of cells or a fetus and not really human being I have to disagree

Please debate

  • 867 Replies
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
9,439 posts
Jester

What is wrong with polygamy?

I never said anything was wrong with it. I just wanted to know if he found it acceptable by his logic.

Octomom, however, is certainly not an example to follow.

Why not? According to RJ, it's our job to procreate, no matter the cost.
VonHeisenbourg
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VonHeisenbourg
377 posts
Peasant

What is wrong with polygamy? It may not conform to our western image of society, but we humans are technically polygynous by nature.

Why are you two even talking about polygamy in an abortion thread. I don't see why Emperor even brought that up, but oh well...

Now that you're talking about this anyways I've got to ask how are humans polygamous by nature? I'm quite sure that going up to a courthouse signing papers for the government and paying money for two marriages is not natural and is not in our human nature.

My thoughts on abortion is that it's never okay (unless there is a chance the mom will die if the baby isn't aborted), even if you were forced to sex there are such things as the morning after pill.

If you were just to lazy to use the proper precautions then you shouldn't be allowed to murder a fetus which will eventually be a human being. Saying fetuses aren't humans because they don't think is like saying brain dead people aren't humans (in my opinion), therefore we can kill them because they will be an inconvenience, and taking care of them won't be fun.

As for not having the income for a child or means to support a child then there are programs you can sign up to, to help with this, or of course you could just drop the child off in a basket in a good neighbourhood in front of someones door. Obviously this isn't preferable, but it's a lot better than abortion in my eyes.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

Why not? According to RJ, it's our job to procreate, no matter the cost.

According to him. But just because that is apparently the only meaning in life he can find for us, doesn't force us to do so.
Though, to be completely honest, Octomom's doctor/gynaecologist must be a real cretin. He should have known the risks.

Now that you're talking about this anyways I've got to ask how are humans polygamous by nature? I'm quite sure that going up to a courthouse signing papers for the government and paying money for two marriages is not natural and is not in our human nature.

What sort of argument is this? Going to a court house and signing things is never "natural", independent of the type of the bond. It's cultural, society. But polygyny is obviously the preferred type among humans.

My thoughts on abortion is that it's never okay (unless there is a chance the mom will die if the baby isn't aborted),

So it's not never ok, you see?

even if you were forced to sex there are such things as the morning after pill.

I thought that in cases of ****, the rapist gets punished, not the victim? If no pill can help, would you still deny them abortion and force them to carry out that child? Can you even imagine the torture that must be?

Saying fetuses aren't humans because they don't think is like saying brain dead people aren't humans (in my opinion), therefore we can kill them because they will be an inconvenience, and taking care of them won't be fun.

Life is precious, but not holy. Don't you even consider the circumstances that child will grow up in? The consequence of such a ban? People have sex, accidents happen, it's just natural. You're just being escapist.

As for not having the income for a child or means to support a child then there are programs you can sign up to, to help with this, or of course you could just drop the child off in a basket in a good neighbourhood in front of someones door. Obviously this isn't preferable, but it's a lot better than abortion in my eyes.

Some people also kill their babies out of desperation. It's also a solution. Is it better than abortion?
VonHeisenbourg
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VonHeisenbourg
377 posts
Peasant

What sort of argument is this? Going to a court house and signing things is never "natural", independent of the type of the bond. It's cultural, society. But polygyny is obviously the preferred type among humans.

What sort of arguement was that? Oh... I don't know the legal definition of marriage and polygamy???

Do tell how it is natural to have two wives socially and to be sleeping around. You think it's normal to go up in front of a priest to say things like "I swear to love you Amanda and no other" and "I swear to love you Christine and no other". Doesn't sound natural.

So it's not never ok, you see?

I suppose you do have a point.

I thought that in cases of ****, the rapist gets punished, not the victim? If no pill can help, would you still deny them abortion and force them to carry out that child? Can you even imagine the torture that must be?

Well if you were forced and the morning after pill didn't work I suppose it would be alright to have an abortion, but other than if it were dangerous for you the mom to conceive the child, or if you were ***** and the morning after pill didn't work I disapprove of haveing an abortion.

Life is precious, but not holy. Don't you even consider the circumstances that child will grow up in? The consequence of such a ban? People have sex, accidents happen, it's just natural. You're just being escapist.

So if a person says to you my child could POTENTIALLY have a poor childhood, your answer to the problem is murder? This is what you honestly believe?

P.S. I'm definitely not being an escapist at all.

Some people also kill their babies out of desperation. It's also a solution. Is it better than abortion?

No, it's just as bad, it's still murder. What I am talking about is leaving a baby outside someone's house in a good neighbourhood or a hospital. How do you compare that with killing a baby out of desperation?
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

What sort of arguement was that? Oh... I don't know the legal definition of marriage and polygamy???


Polygamy doesn't mean marriage, nor does monogamy mean marriage. It refers to the number of partners.

Do tell how it is natural to have two wives socially and to be sleeping around


From a biological perspective it's 'natural' to have casual sexual relationships, it's just through society that we commit ourselves to just one other partner. There also were societies where polygamy was the norm.

One isn't really more natural than the other.

You think it's normal to go up in front of a priest to say things like "I swear to love you Amanda and no other" and "I swear to love you Christine and no other". Doesn't sound natural.


1) We're not talking about marriage.
2) Marriage isn't natural anyways.
3) In other societies polygamy was the norm.

work I disapprove of haveing an abortion.


You disapprove? Okay. Doesn't give you the right to make that choice for everyone though. There's more than just the reasons you listed that people have abortions for.

So if a person says to you my child could POTENTIALLY have a poor childhood, your answer to the problem is murder? This is what you honestly believe?


If it was your child, then it would be up to you.

What I am talking about is leaving a baby outside someone's house in a good neighbourhood or a hospital. How do you compare that with killing a baby out of desperation?


I would actually consider this far worse than having an abortion (during the legal timeframe). All this is doing is eschewing responsibility onto someone else and burdening others.
partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

Do tell how it is natural to have two wives socially and to be sleeping around. You think it's normal to go up in front of a priest to say things like "I swear to love you Amanda and no other" and "I swear to love you Christine and no other". Doesn't sound natural.


just think logically.
if you could... wouldn't you want to have sex whit a other (wo)man every week for the rest of your life?
do you know many people have sexual affairs beside their marriage...
it's in our nature to go after as many as we can.

marriage on the other hand is created by humans. it didn't exist until some human had the idea, and the idea became a imported part of humanity's culture.
but as you might not know. in many places on earth, it is still prety normal to have more wife's then just 1.

Well if you were forced and the morning after pill didn't work I suppose it would be alright to have an abortion, but other than if it were dangerous for you the mom to conceive the child, or if you were ***** and the morning after pill didn't work I disapprove of haveing an abortion.


that is 2.
now let me picture another scenario...

people bought a house. the man has a good paying job and is a expert in some kind of science thingy. the woman has no job and doesn't seem to find something suitable for her. they got it well so they decide to get a kid. so they **** and tadaaa 1st time hit. =P
but then 4 weeks later the government has to cut some science research grants exactly where this man works. and yea as you expect he lost his job. and there is no other research center asking for his expertise.
they have to leave the house because they cant pay their mortgage. and need to find a rent house.
the woman might find some work. but it will be hard because she is already pregnant. and not much employers want that. (1st she starts. then when she is familiar whit her job she needs to get paid leave) + she hasn't worked for a while.

now this might be a 1 in a million situation, but don't you think it will be better for the kid if she gets a abortion now. (while there is nothing alive about the fetus yet) and try again in a few year when they have settled down again. and give the kid are more stable life situation to grow up in.

So if a person says to you my child could POTENTIALLY have a poor childhood, your answer to the problem is murder? This is what you honestly believe?


if you want to call it murder so badly.. then, yes.
however we call it abortion. and abortion is not murder.
it's stoping a natural process that has been triggered by mistake. or for the greater good of the mother or fetus.

What I am talking about is leaving a baby outside someone's house in a good neighbourhood or a hospital.


you mean 1.2 million babies per year are going to be dropped on the streets of the usa? you really think that is a good idea?
that will also mean that 1.2 million people per year will never know their biological parents.
don't you see this will give a big problem for now and the near aswell as the long future?

foster homes are already working above their capacity. where do you want to keep these extra 1.2 million per year?

Yes, we need to consider how we handle our population. But all the (off-topic) talk about us destroying everything is just a tad overblown. I don't think we could ever destroy all life even if we wanted to.

we will keep destroying until it destroys us. (or a very big amount of us) and then nature will fix itself from our destruction just as nature always does indeed.
Blackbeltr0
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Blackbeltr0
769 posts
Jester

do you know many people have sexual affairs beside their marriage...
it's in our nature to go after as many as we can.


NO AND THEY ARE GOOD PEOPLE who are FAITHFUL
partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

NO AND THEY ARE GOOD PEOPLE who are FAITHFUL


you don't know many have a sexual affair.
but on the other side, you do know that all these people are good people. and that they all believe whiteout evidence.

interesting... xD
RikJimmy00
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RikJimmy00
240 posts
Nomad

Why not? According to RJ, it's our job to procreate, no matter the cost.


I think you didn't understand me, our job is to procreate but I never said something about taking advantage of it like Octomom. Everyone should procreate at least once to experience how being a father/mother is...you could discover a thing or two.
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

our job is to procreate


No it's not.

Everyone should procreate at least once to experience how being a father/mother is...you could discover a thing or two.


Three reasons why I don't agree with this statement.

1) Some people (a lot, actually) won't or don't make good parents.
2) The world doesn't need more people. If we had half as many people in the world there would be far less issues.
3) Not everyone wants to have a child.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Saying fetuses aren't humans because they don't think is like saying brain dead people aren't humans (in my opinion), therefore we can kill them because they will be an inconvenience, and taking care of them won't be fun.


There is actually a difference here. In the case of the person who grew up and then became brain dead we would have had conscious thought for a period of time. As such we can look at that duration of consciousness and call it personhood. This is not the case with the fetus.

Though this does fail on another level as there have been arguments of pulling the plug on those who are stuck in a persistent vegetative state.

As for not having the income for a child or means to support a child then there are programs you can sign up to, to help with this, or of course you could just drop the child off in a basket in a good neighbourhood in front of someones door. Obviously this isn't preferable, but it's a lot better than abortion in my eyes.


These programs are already over burdened as it is.
Carrying to term then giving the child up also wouldn't always be an option for everyone. There are social stigmas involved that would end up with women preforming back ally abortions if it were made illegal and they were left with just this option as a legal route.
Getoffmydangle
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Getoffmydangle
152 posts
Blacksmith

Some people (a lot, actually) won't or don't make good parents.


Amen! You would not believe how many ridiculously terrible parents I come across in my line of work. These kids don't stand a chance at having a happy/healthy life. I work in the social service field and Its really frustrating.

I haven't read all of the pages of this thread so if this is redundant I apologize. The point I wanted to add to this topic is that the rights of the mother take precedent over the rights of a fetus. Even the constitution seems to back this up by guaranteeing everyone the right to pursue happiness etc As Long As you are not impinging upon the rights of others. Being a parasitic growth inside someone else's body certainly impinges on their freedom.
Secondly, with regard to the life of the mother and the mother's safety, consider this: The time in a woman's life when she is most likely to be beaten, *****, and murdered is when she is pregnant. And those at greatest risk are low-income, less-educated, unemployed, teenage women. And, Women who are already in abusive relationships are more likely to have unplanned pregnancies, therefore they are more likely to be those dangerous situations. Therefore, the rights of the woman to protect herself come before the rights of the (not even real yet) potential person.
Think about the real-world implications of this issue. A woman in a relationship with a verbally, physically, and emotionally abuse man gets pregnant accidentally. If she carries this child to term, she not only bears the medical and physical risks associated with pregnacy, she will then be legally tied to this man for the next 18+ years.

Additionally, but not surprisingly, people who use zero contraception account for 47% of unplanned pregnancies in the US. And it is the same people who oppose birth control (republicans) that also oppose abortion! Where is the logic in that?
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

Where is the logic in that?


If there was logic in stupidity we wouldn't be having much difficulty fixing the problem.

I've never heard or seen the figure you mentioned, that pregnant women are more likely to be beaten, *****, and murdered. How much higher is that than normal? Depending on the data it could just be correlational...or maybe not.
handlerfan
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handlerfan
185 posts
Nomad

A couple not using contraception are taking the risk of conception and some women will seek to get rid of the baby when they get pregnant in this way. I would rather that such an abortion was carried out in a hospital by doctors than in a backstreet by a quack.
An unwanted pregnancy is not a parasitic growth inside the woman. I think that it's a tragedy that new life is created and not wanted. At the same time I allow the woman the right to choose to abort.
I think it's a paradox that abortion can be ok and not ok at the same time.

Masterforger
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Masterforger
1,824 posts
Peasant

You know what? This thread shouldn't even exist. It is, as I have said before, entirely the woman's choice. How about we stop arguing and stating the same stuff and agree on this, so a more entertaining WEPR thread can be made?

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