ForumsWEPREvolutionism or creationism

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Freon
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Freon
24 posts
Nomad

im just opening this topic so that people can have a NICE, FREINDLY place to talk about their beliefs, i Myself believe in evolutionism

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Skyla
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Skyla
291 posts
Peasant

Wow, you're initiation is really tough to pass!

I believe the fundemental nature of time is that it does not flow, it is not a smooth, continuous motion. The quantum level energy is not released continuously - there is a limit to how small a change in energy an atom can experience.

For example, time could be like a movie. The individual frames of time may be so small that they give the appearance of being continuous. I mean really small, even smaller than a femtosecond (one thousandth of one trillionth of a second - 1/1,000,000,000,000,000th of a second.) A femtosecond is to a second, like a second is to 32 million years. Cool, huh?

I also believe time flows in one direction - Past < Present < Future. We do know what happened in the past, but we don't know what will happen in the future.

The theory of relativity suggests that the faster an object moves, the slower time runs, until it reaches the speed of light, time comes to a stop. This was proven with the atomic clocks expirement: Two atomic clocks were used, they were synchronized to read the same time, they were left for 3 months, they read the same time. Then they took one of the clocks and took it on a journey around the world, then it was again compared with the other clock. The clock that traveled around the world was running a fraction of a second slower than the one that stayed in place. It was only a fraction of a second, but the difference is real.

This is a sentence, I like sentences.

There is only one speed we can travel at, and that is the speed of light, it is a combination of our speed through space and through time. The faster we travel through the dimensions of space, the slower we travel through the dimension of time, and vice versa.

For example, an astronaut traveling along at light speed has used up their speed allocation in the space dimensions, and as a consequence does not travel through time.

This suggests that the speed of light is reall just the limiting speed within the universe, and if we had no motion through space, then we would be travelling at light speed through time.

Aah, off topic
Sorry.

-Skyla <3

Strop
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Strop
10,816 posts
Bard

Haha, whoops, I gave you the wrong idea. My bad.

I'm not testing you, but by 'initiation' I actually meant I was gonna engage you in technical discussion to give you an idea of how some of us think on these forums (because you seem pretty smart and all that, you know). Now I've done that, I'm not actually trying to push you or anything, I'm just discussing

Anyway, this is off-topic; if we can find the relevant place to post, we can strike it up there. Alternatively, you could check out Moe's The Great Debate. I'm sure you'd do well there.

Strop
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Strop
10,816 posts
Bard

Sooo...how about that evolutionism versus creationism? >_>

Skyla
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Skyla
291 posts
Peasant

I'm all for evolutionism!

I understand you're kind of in between? A little more to evolutionism though?

-Skyla <3

Strop
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Strop
10,816 posts
Bard

Ahar Remember how I said I was playing Devil's advocate?

I believe that the principles of evolution are a powerful tool to understanding many features of development, and is therefore a valuable model. For your purposes, you could say I've therefore subscribed to evolutionary theory.

As for creationism, I'm not concerned with the questions of how and why we came into being, because of my worldview (I believe we're "just here" and that there is no real "reason" or "mission", or "special significance" to being human, for that matter.) Therefore I don't subscribe to creationism at all.

What I was actually trying to convey throughout the previous page, was that the reason I am not a creationist is not because I am an evolutionist!

Seeing as it's a relatively rare position here, I felt the need to explain it step-by-step. ^_^

homegrove
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homegrove
325 posts
Peasant

That is, in my opinion Strop, a very foolish way to view our world (no offense intended). If we have no real "reason" for living, we should not have to abide by any rules whatsoever. After all, by evolutions standards, we are all a freak accident, so we are all just freaks anyway, with no purpose. Why should we even live another day? For simple pleasure? Some may abide to this, but I for one find this a meaningless way to go through life.

As I have said before, I believe it takes far more faith to believe in evolution, then it does to believe in a Creator.

redbedhead
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redbedhead
341 posts
Nomad

creationsim, its the most logical and the truth

Strop
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Strop
10,816 posts
Bard

Ha, I know you would say something like that, because we've...I think...actually nearly had this conversation in a separate thread.

But let me engage anyway! You've asked what I consider to be the existential question, and I believe the answer is very liberating indeed:

Why should we even live another day?


If you're taking that question seriously, I'm going to hand you a loaded gun, and tell you that you have no absolute, external reason to live. Are you going to shoot yourself?

Seriously. Are you? Nothing is stopping you from shooting yourself, but (in most cases, anyway), chances are that you're not going to take me up on that offer. Whether or not you have to find some reason, be it internal or external, to continue living, is up to you.

However, the insistence that we must have a reason to live stems from the same fallacious perspective on logic that I pointed out on the previous page. We may inhabit a conscious world that is governed by some form of reason, but reason does not govern the world. We should strive to be aware of the limitations of our consciousness and more broadly, our subjective experience. This includes our minds playing tricks on us and telling us we're more than we make ourselves out to be by virtue of being self-aware.

Furthermore, this view tends to discount the plethora of drivers and influences on our behavior itself that we are not necessarily aware of. To believe in evolution on its own would be to say "we are driven to survival on the whole", and then (if you're being a good scientist) observing the patterns that suggest where we can describe specific mechanisms that govern our behaviors, as derived from how we interact with our environment and others (seeing that the world has parameters that exist beyond our sphere of consideration!) Again, I argue that we don't necessarily need the why and how to this what because of the nature of an observation: we've observed that we're driven to survival- not having a reason to support this is not going to change this because you make observations, not control them.

The considertaion of behaviors then leads to a discussion on ethics:

If we have no real "reason" for living, we should not have to abide by any rules whatsoever.


Not necessarily. Well, in the most trivial of senses, yes. We don't have to abide by any rules, but for some reason we do, and what's more, we argue endlessly about how to make these rules, and what they should be. I wonder why that could be!

From an evolutionary standpoint, let us consider that aforementioned "drive to survival". What's going to maximises the survivability of any individual of an animal species? A mix of the individual attributes of that individual to work in their interests, combined with a support network that works in that network's interest. We can thus broadly consider ecologies and societies to be consisting of units that must negotiate the balance of working for various forms of self-interest, be it to help themselves or help those who may be helping them. This requires cohabitation, and it requires cooperation.

Ethics, therefore, can be thought of as the guidelines to behavior that has developed in humans (morality can be more broadly applied to other species, I might add), such that we could cohabit. The behaviors have persisted today long past the point where we were merely struggling to survive, hence the complexity and the apparent arbitrariness of the arguments of our ethical system. However, some things remain constant:

We still are living beings with certain commonalities that interact with the various parameters of our environment in common ways. We have variable predispositions to behaviors, but these tend to converge upon a certain balance which has been noted in the majority of prevalent ethical systems, and it is a combination of our tendencies to behavior, modulated by our consciousness that has us making propositional claims upon the value of these observations (and desiring to make a priori moral judgements, what's more!)

So I've gone and described (briefly and simplistically) one way in which we can think of moral systems and the way people think and behave as a whole. Furthermore, I've kept a constant theme: what we see now is the result of derivations on how we interact with our environment. You're probably thinking "so what?" and here it is:

To me, it's a natural delusion to think of generating an absolute moral system upon values that are necessarily derived from ourselves, and to claim that this actually comes from an external source. If we can consider everything I've said above, there is plenty of berth for moral behavior, as we are already by definition moral: it is morality that informs our actions and our perception of reward/punishment. In generating ethics, consideration of all the above would suggest that the best kinds of systems are those that exercise an awareness of context, goals and results, and balances. Furthermore they would not resemble a set of rules (universal maxims to behavior, heh), so much as a way of life, a mindset that strives to understand and appreciate every facet of experience, because it can make judgements and assessments without connotations that unecessarily disenfranchise any being.

I know this is not an easy perspective to adopt, and it's not that easy to hold to, but I've found it particularly rewarding. Perhaps you're right that it takes more faith to be this way, but perhaps...I have that faith.
Strop
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Strop
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Bard

Gah, that last post was directed @ Homeb- Homegrove. Trust redbedhead to drop a Dogma-bomb while I was crafting my response!

Skyla
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Skyla
291 posts
Peasant

@Homegrove: We are like any other animal, the only difference is that we are more intelligent. There is a reason for living now, but when humans were still primitive (some 150,000 years ago, I believe) we were exactly like other animals - hunt, sleep, reproduce. We abide by the law and rules as we are intelligent, and we want everyone else to have a good life (ARGH! COMMUNISM!)

We are not an accident, we just happened to be the most adapted creatures to come along (excluding Neanderthals, no one knows why they became extinct, scientists have proven that if they survived as long as we have, they would be a lot stronger, and a lot more intelligent that Homo Sapiens), and that is the reason we survived, and will survive, until we cause our own end .

We have no purpose, originally, yes. We make a purpose for ourselves, as we are perfectly capable of doing that. We live another day because we want to, anyone can commit suicide at any given time, but most of us value our lives, and enjoy it.

How does it require more faith to believe in evolution than an Eternal God? We witness evolution all the time, at any given time an animal/plant may produce an offspring with a certain mutation that causes them to be better adapted than previous generations, and they will most likely live on for a longer period of time than their predecessors.

I have used this example in the previous page but will use it again in case you missed it: A plant evolves to have yellow spots on its leaves to avoid being eaten by caterpillars laid there by butterflies (the butterflies' egg is yellow.) These butterflies do not lay eggs on plants which already have eggs on them. The plants then don't get eaten by the caterpillars because butterflies think that eggs have already been laid there.

On the other hand, we can't see the Creator (Yes, I know that's what faith is all about, but still, seeing God would you know, help the credibility along.) We cannot witness the Creator's work in action (don't tell me to go outside and look around.) Read my posts on the previous page for my conclusion and points about the existance of an all-powerful being.

-Skyla <3

Strop
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Strop
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Bard

{Please forgive me for sticking my nose in. I would just like to point something out that you've said that actually serves as a demonstration of my own argument:

...we just happened to be the most adapted creatures to come along...


As you can see, this (in the context of the entire post) implicitly values intelligence as an adaptation more greatly than other adaptations, which demonstrates my point about the workings of our self-reflexive consciousness.

Carry on!}
homegrove
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homegrove
325 posts
Peasant

Although many intelligent things have been said on the point I brought up, they do not really answer anything, at least in my eyes. More or less circular reasoning, in a way - never coming down to an absolute answer (just statements that 'suppose' or 'assume' different things) Anyways, I suppose it is hard to come down to absolutes, on a subject as diverse as this, so I guess we should move on.

Skyla stated, amongst other things, that "we want everyone else to have a good life" .... Why? That, is one question an evolutionist (or, something who believes in evolution, to be more exact) can not answer, at least not scientifically. Why do we have a conscience? I thought survival of the fittest was what evolution was based on, so what has changed? Go ahead, I would like to see some supposed reasons. {opening up another discussion topic in itself, but...}

Strop
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Strop
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Bard

Well Homegrove, that's because you hold a different kind of faith, and...that's pretty much the end of the story! Because yes...you're precisely right- I don't come to an absolute answer because I do not want to come to an absolute answer.

Like I said, you appear to require a how and a why. I only concern myself with the what. As for the ramifications of this, I'm hardly going to preach, but cite myself as an example: Have I killed myself yet? Do I lack a moral grounding? I'd like to think not for both! I still behave ethically, I am still able to debate on moral principles based on criteria of my own choosing and valuing. I am merely aware of the processes by I which do this, and I value that in itself.

Also, I've already provided the basis of an answer to your question, at least in terms of a what or "the way it has happened to be". Again, why (to split hairs) isn't my concern.

From an evolutionary standpoint, let us consider that aforementioned "drive to survival". What's going to maximises the survivability of any individual of an animal species? A mix of the individual attributes of that individual to work in their interests, combined with a support network that works in that network's interest. We can thus broadly consider ecologies and societies to be consisting of units that must negotiate the balance of working for various forms of self-interest, be it to help themselves or help those who may be helping them. This requires cohabitation, and it requires cooperation.


This is compatible with survival of the fittest: being fit on your own is nothing in the face of a fit group. Details stem from this: I will also add that as well as facilitating the separation of the fact of an event from its ramifications, a fuller appreciation of ecology and environmental ramifications of our actions also becomes apparent having considered this.
Ricador
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Ricador
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Shepherd

GOD DEFINITELY CREATED US ALL

Skyla
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Skyla
291 posts
Peasant

@homegrove:

We look after each other and want every other human to have a good life because it's natural - all animals of the same species help each other out.

I remember seeing a video of a group of vultures feasting on a dead giraffe. Then, a lion came along, and as it ran towards the vultures, two bigger vultures (I believe those are the ones that usually get rid of the smaller vultures and steal their meal) were flying towards the lion (perhaps distract it until the smaller ones flew off.)

Even though the larger vultures attack the smaller ones sometimes to get their food, they helped them now, because they have a common enemy, the lion. They protected their own kind.

It has nothing to do with us, we're animals, like any of the others.

There are also other reasons - we are emotionally attached to some people, and want the best for them.

-Skyla <3

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