Forums → WEPR → So whats you thoughts on the illegal aliens ?

Your all ninja.

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They get to use the services without paying 'their fair share' of the cost.

mmigration policies have been much harsher than even Bush's; he has already deported more people in his first year in office than Bush did in his final year in office. So instead of being a splendid ignoramus, do some bloody research. Stop your incredibly moronic and baseless accusations just out of pure prejudice. It's ok to pick faults through an objective discussion, but to do so because he's liberal, shows how much of a pathetic person one is.

You all know who that was directed towards.

I don't see how you can my point telling Macfan off when he claims Obama is always "bad" into a point attacking you. It was a point highlighting to him that Obama has done more than Bush and other presidents recently to stem immigration. It was a jab at him to not be outright bigoted.

Nor do I see how my points are to the contrary.
So how am I freaking out?

I don't see how you can my point telling Macfan off when he claims Obama is always "bad" into a point attacking you. It was a point highlighting to him that Obama has done more than Bush and other presidents recently to stem immigration. It was a jab at him to not be outright bigoted.

Nor do I see how my points are to the contrary.
So how am I freaking out?

From what I have heard on it, up here where we have about the same population that the plan is about to let in and no immigration problem, that is usually what happens. The workers risk their necks in America to send money back to Mexico, which makes a lot more since then risking little kids lives, doesn't it?

Do you expect the law does not effect them, because there "Parents made them do it"?

They are all criminals and must face the consequence of the crimes. Regardless if they are children or not.

Fair? They broke the law every day for five years, and it would be fair to let them go because?

Or you can climb in the window and hide whenever he comes around. Which is illegal, of course. So if you found a man trying to live in your house, wouldn't you call the police to get him out of it? Even if it was a child?

So how is this law going to help children at all? Their parents are still illegal. They can't even go to the office to get registered as a citizen, since their parents would have to take them there. This will only effect illegals over eighteen, or it will mean that the parents would have to leave the country, since this law does not help them.

I'm sorry... I can't really understand that. Could you please rephrase?

Yes? If a parent trains a their 5 year old child to steal do we send the child to juvy?

Okay. I understand if they came here alone. But they have no choice if they come with their parents.

Because they had no choice!

Do you really think that a child could tell their parents that they decided that they were going to stay in their home country?

Even after being spoonfeed the idea that life would be so much better in America?

Even after the fact that you'd be dragged along if they really wanted you to go?

Yes you would. No is just not an answer.

This part needs more detail. Sometimes the man trying to get in has a son. Before they get in the man tells his son hears tons of stories of how amazing life is once he gets inside. And if the son refuses, he must refuse to his father. Who is holding a belt in his hand threatingly. What you're saying is you know all this, but here is what you say when you catch them,
"What? What are you doing here? Get out of my house man! And you there! Yeah little boy, you're just as much to blame. You're a criminal! Get out of here too!"

The reason most people cross illegaly is usally to have a better life for their family. Themselves too. But mostly their family. They bring start family here, get out of the poverty cycle. If the child is a citizen they can always come back legally, or stay with family here. But family and getting more opprotunities is really the most of the point of illegal and often legal immigration. At least in hispanic and latino familes. Some do it to get away from war, dictators, ect... But a better life for their family is almost always involved.

Huh. What words did you use, exactly?

how can we know what the real impact is?

They do pay their fare share, using the fares.

People who payed taxes for them get the tax money back (Right?)

America has money. So the money makers come to America. They leave their families in Mexico. They make money in America. They send money back to their families. Sound right?

Yes? "I would like to stay here with grandma. I don't want to go across the desert to a place where I would not be able to do anything to help anyway."

HA! Good one! Children listening to their parents?

Why? If the parents truly care about the child, why would they drag them across a dangerous desert, against their will?

I would like to see the study you based this on.

Exactly! So you see the point. If a child breaks into a house with his father, both are criminals. At the very least, the child is taken away from his father. They don't say "Alright, the old guy has to leave. But you there! You child! You can live in my house all you want. You just have to leave your father behind and somehow provide for yourself without his help".

lmgtfy

The point is that there is indeed an impact of at least many millions to potentially billions of dollars every year depending on the state.

What about the 'free' ones paid by taxes and donations?

No, that's an expense. They don't get the money back unless the transit operated under budget. Fares don't usually cover the full operating cost, let alone give a surplus, because people want to keep each ride cheap. It's a form of &quotoint of sale" manipulation. People are more likely to accept a tax increase of a cent or two later than a much higher cost of a service when they need it.

Uh huh. And sometimes the kids contribute to the money making.

Or the parents just take their kids for whatever reason.

Typical response: You're coming with us. We are doing this for you.

Yes... It is a compleatly different culture than here, trust me.

So they have a chance at doing something other than tending to the farm. That could be one reason (the reason my family came here.)

There needs to be a study on this? In some cultures you just don't say no to your parents when they're serious.

They can be very intimidating

Do I really need to explain how this works?

Thats just the way kids are raised. The parent may not even take no for an answer, they just do want they want

5 year old verses 20 year old, who do you think will win?

The child didn't really chose to commit the crime on his own though. He was forced into it. He didn't really have a choice when it came to it.

Okay, I don't see how you're a criminal even when you're forced into commiting a crime.

I'm not talking about pressure. I'm talking about force. In most situations they have no choice.

In most situations they have no choice. They are not allowed to make a desicion as big as that for themselves.

Witch is illegal in America. If they where made citizens, that would have to stop.

What reason would you have for ripping your child away from home, into a foreign land, across a dangerous area, all illegally?

It could be. But why wouldn't they wait until the child was of working age to take him? That would make more since, wouldn't it?

Being intimidated by your parents? That is kind of sad, isn't it?

And in some cultures it is considered idiotic to bring your kid when there is a high possibility you will die.

Sounds like a depressive family, if they just bring their child to a foreign country to act as child labor. Should we not stop things like this from happening?

Why not? "Oh it is OK that you shot your pimp. I can tell that you where forced to do this, after all. It is not like you could say no to your parents!"

Then what? He can't leave his parents, after all we just proved that he is literally an idiot who can't think for himself.

No, this is an act that would effect people who can stand by themselves. People likely over eighteen, who came here before they where sixteen. You remember that link that you put on the page? The one where you said "Those are the kind of people we're making legal"? That statement was partially accurate. Twenty one year olds who already have a job and are living by there selves. But really, if you have a degree you could just apply for citizenship normally

I don't know if most of the people here actually got what Obama is doing. He is granting them legal work permits to work for 2 years in America, with the possibility of unlimited extensions later on, not citizenships. So I don't quite comprehend why people are rambling on about the 800,000 extra votes. Yes, he is courting the votes Latinos and Hispanics who are American citizens, but not those of ''uneducated'' just Americanized migrants. So why then are people also arguing about bad voting behaviours?

Also, the argument about taxes. Those migrants who will be covered must be in school or have graduated from high school or be honorably discharged from the U.S. military. Which means that they have had or will have the education that allows them to earn much more than just ''one dollar'' a day. And yes, illegal migrants, or at least those who dare to pay do pay a substantial amount of tax, around 9 billion dollars. Furthermore, such taxes are not used on Social Security for them since illegal immigrants cannot claim Social Security, hence there is more money to cover citizens.

What about crime then? Only those migrants who have not been convicted of any felony or significant misdemeanor offenses can qualify. I think that's self-explanatory.

I disagree with the whole ''Children are criminals too'' point. Children are considered juveniles under the law and hence are not treated with exactly the same laws as applied to parents. They cannot oppose their parents at that age, and hence have to follow them into whatever they choose for them. To classify them as knowing criminals who commit a crime willingly is farcical.

Furthermore, as much as it is fairness to such children, it would be a benefit for America. Many migrants who are stuck in this conundrum are college graduates, with all of them having a high school education or a GED. With the abysmal American high school graduate rate of 68%, this will boost the education level, and value of American workers to compete with the rest of the world. This justification is long rooted, in 1982, the Supreme Court found that all children living in the United States have the right to a public education, whatever their immigration status. The justicesâ reasoning was shaped not by compassion but practicality: it does the country no good to perpetuate an uneducated underclass.

I don't know if most of the people here actually got what Obama is doing. He is granting them legal work permits to work for 2 years in America, with the possibility of unlimited extensions later on, not citizenships.

I think it's legal at 14.

To get your child out of an already more dangerous area? To get an entire family out of poverty?

Sometimes there is more than one child. If one can work than he can help support others until they can work. I'm not sure if they're forced to work though. I think it's just expected.

I guess. It just happens though. Doesn't that happen with every family? At least a little.

That's a risk some take. (Not all face the risk of death you know).

No it's not just for child labor. It's also for better opprotunities. My grandfather tried very hard to make money in D.R but could never get anywhere. If he stayed there he would have been a farmer his whole life. If his kids never moved, so would they.

In deciding where you were going to live? Could you have just told your parents no if they said you were moving?

Are you kidding me? What 10 year old, 12 year old, or younger child can just decide where they are going to live? A citizenship means they can come here if they want to and stay. They don't need to worry about deportation for themselves. They can come here or stay here and set up a life for themselves and for future generations of their family. Future generations won't need to live the life that their family was trying to get away from.

I think these people should be citizens anyway. If they've lived so much of their life here, why should they have to prove themselves?

I don't know if most of the people here actually got what Obama is doing. He is granting them legal work permits to work for 2 years in America, with the possibility of unlimited extensions later on, not citizenships. So I don't quite comprehend why people are rambling on about the 800,000 extra votes. Yes, he is courting the votes Latinos and Hispanics who are American citizens, but not those of ''uneducated'' just Americanized migrants. So why then are people also arguing about bad voting behaviours?

Also, the argument about taxes. Those migrants who will be covered must be in school or have graduated from high school or be honorably discharged from the U.S. military.

Which means that they have had or will have the education that allows them to earn much more than just ''one dollar'' a day.

And yes, illegal migrants, or at least those who dare to pay do pay a substantial amount of tax, around 9 billion dollars.

Furthermore, such taxes are not used on Social Security for them since illegal immigrants cannot claim Social Security, hence there is more money to cover citizens.

What about crime then? Only those migrants who have not been convicted of any felony or significant misdemeanor offenses can qualify. I think that's self-explanatory.

I disagree with the whole ''Children are criminals too'' point. Children are considered juveniles under the law and hence are not treated with exactly the same laws as applied to parents. They cannot oppose their parents at that age, and hence have to follow them into whatever they choose for them. To classify them as knowing criminals who commit a crime willingly is farcical.

Furthermore, as much as it is fairness to such children, it would be a benefit for America. Many migrants who are stuck in this conundrum are college graduates, with all of them having a high school education or a GED.

With the abysmal American high school graduate rate of 68%, this will boost the education level, and value of American workers to compete with the rest of the world.

This justification is long rooted, in 1982, the Supreme Court found that all children living in the United States have the right to a public education, whatever their immigration status. The justicesâ reasoning was shaped not by compassion but practicality: it does the country no good to perpetuate an uneducated underclass.

So building on that, I forgot to ask, why would everyone be heading down the wrong track of this argument by going around in circles about kids getting citizenships and their parents not? That's quite a different issue; kids of illegal immigrants already get their citizenships because they are born in America, those who tag along won't get citizenships. There are children who are citizens and hence are in a quandary, because they can stay, but their parents cannot, but this is a different issue altogether.

Ah yes. Risking the life of your child....to get it out of a dangerous area. Makes perfect since...

No?

Then why doesn't everyone take the path that does not risk death?

I don't know about your family, but why wouldn't he just wait until they where of legal working age to bring them over? Legally?

I could have told my parents that I don't want to move, especially if it was out of the country. Would they had just slapped you and dragged you out of the country?

Because they came here illegally? Because they are adults, and not kids, like so much of your argument rested on? Because they willing came, or willing stayed, in America illegally? Even if for some reason children where not considered criminals, then you have to agree that these guys are. Why should we give up money to foreign criminals?

Really? Work permits? Huh. My source of information was not exactly reliable.

Few sources make that claim. Most say far less, like fifty million dollars, and still a good part of that is not from illegal immigrants.

Really? Work permits? Huh. My source of information was not exactly reliable.

Which I did know. (I thought they had to finish school, though.). How do you even get into the military as an illegal immigrant?

Great! So if they have the money of an average citizen, why don't they just go and get themselves cleared legally? If they have the money, if they have the education, why not just legally apply for citizenship instead of getting some dumb work permit?

Few sources make that claim. Most say far less, like fifty million dollars, and still a good part of that is not from illegal immigrants.

The few who pay a little bit of taxes can hardly count as being a decent thing. So you are saying that, even though most don't pay taxes, its OK since they don't ask for tax backs?

Why does everyone assume that children are puppets that can do nothing without their parents? Why would you not classify them as criminals?

And as I had said earlier, lets say that the children are not criminals. But of course children don't need work permits. This law only effects adults, and of course we can both say that adults willfully staying in the United States is a crime?

Great! Then they can go get into America legally quite easily. And legally. Why wouldn't they?

Will it now? They are just living here, and would have already counted toward the graduation rate if they had graduated, correct? And those that failed would have contributed to the failure. How would it boost the education level?

Really? It does allow them to save more funds for the people who actually PAY for the schools, the taxpaying citizens, rather then illegals, doesn't it? Not to mention the fact that they are an illegal underclass, who would literally be kicked out if found out.

I know about right of soil. But even a casual glance at our arguments and you could see that we are not talking about that. We are talking about parents bringing there children, who where born in their home countries, to the United States. And thus not American citizens.

And apparently this only effects the younger generation, who would receive the work permits, while their parents would not. Correct? I need to find a copy of this law somewhere..

Many of the 800,000 are college grads with no where to go, and no jobs to seek.