ForumsWEPR[NECRO] Catholics aren't Christians, and other myths (apologetics thread)

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Jacen96
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Jacen96
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Many times I have seen the phrase somewhere that Catholics are not Christians because of several reasons. I am looking for protestants who have a bone to pick and I want you to give support for what you say.

p.s. Claims such as the Catholic Church founded the Islamic religion,[26] The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as well as the Jehovah's Witnesses; persecuting Jews; starting the Holocaust: and founding Communism, Nazism, and the Ku Klux Klan; and starting the World Wars. Will be easy to refute because of the fact that many of these organizations are anti-catholic.

~~~Darth Caedus

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woodchuck76
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woodchuck76
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Being a Christian is, at it's foundation, a matter of belief about the status of Jesus Christ. Many people believe that Christ existed and was a good guy, but that belief is not sufficient to make those people Christians. Rather, what Christians believe about Christ that makes them a Christian is that Jesus was the son of God (Messiah, God incarnate, etc.). If you have this belief, I contend, then you are a Christian.

Catholics believe that Christ is the son of God. During mass, every catholic recites the Nicene creed. It is a statement of what they believe. Here is the part about Jesus:

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

They sound like Christians to me.

danielo
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danielo
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In the start, there were two major christians ways of beliving, the orthodox church and the catholic curch. the catholic belived jesus is God and had super powers, and the orthodox belive that jesus was a human, a prophet rather than a god who come down to earth.

Later, when martin lother balmed the Pope and the all system of cardinals and ranks beign corrupted, then there was a seperetion, seperating christianity from the pope and hte petriach {the orthodox church headmaseter}.

All of these noinses about catholic drinking kids blood, spoiling the wells and bringing ills to the livestoock are just a piece of rubbish, made by crazy cultist in USA, so tehy wont have to have any feeling for the pope and the christian church. because they want to be the pope. they want to be the leader of a church. how many of them are exist in USA? houndred if not thousends who belive they talk with god and stuff. all of them feel speicel, and want to be more speicel by decreecing the rank of the pope Compared to themselve.

That what i belive about these Charges. And just to make it clear fro all teh people who dont know me, im a jewish atheist, so i consider myself natural in that case, not Biased to any side.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Yes it is quite ridiculous to claim Catholics aren't Christians. In truth it's one of the oldest forms of Christianity. Saying otherwise plays into the no true Scotsman fallacy.

Salvidian
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Salvidian
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Does anyone know where that myth came from? I vote it came from a mentally insane person who thought he was a relative to Nostradamus. Seriously, it's ridiculous.

BRAAINZz
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BRAAINZz
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This seems a bit backwards to me, being that Catholicism came first. Whatever. When was this myth created actually? I'm interested.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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My guess would that it came from the great schism in the 11th century. This is when the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches split. Each believing the other to be the true path.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism

Jacen96
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Jacen96
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Jack Chick is a big problem with tracts like this

Also I have seen people on the internet carrying on an argument that Catholics aren't christian.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.


In case you didn't know a new translation was recently released that changed some minor wording to more closely resemble the original latin text, this is the result.

~~~Darth Caedus
Kasic
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Kasic
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The most common reason I've heard for people calling Catholocism not a Christian religion is for idol worship (saints/Mary) and because they have the pope.

Jacen96
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Jacen96
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The most common reason I've heard for people calling Catholocism not a Christian religion is for idol worship (saints/Mary) and because they have the pope.
We do not worship them, we ask them to pray to God on our behalf in the same way someone might ask their friend to pray to God on their behalf.

As for the pope not being in the Bible, this is based off of how we "worship" him and how in the Greek translation a different word is used for Peter and the rock Jesus will build his Church on, but this is only if you read it and assume it is in a different dialect than it actually is.

~~~Darth Caedus
TheMostManlyMan
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TheMostManlyMan
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But Catholics aren't Christian's. Christian means 'follower of Christ' which they don't do all hat well. Marlboro differences between the church that the bible teaches and he Catholic Church.
He pope: the position of the pope is never once mentioned in he New Testament. In that verse where they claim to have proof for it, the word rock that's used to describe Peter means a small rock like a pebble, the word rock that Jesus said he would build his church on is like a foundation, a big rock, not a pebble. And hen they take that, say that he's setting up the position of he pope, and let their minds run free with ideas as to what he does.
Things like the holy smoke: I'm not sure where they pretend to get their authority for that but it's probably in the Old Testament, under the law if Moses which is no longer binding, of it were still binding the. Here would be contradictions like no pig eating before verses it saying that it is not what goes into a man that defiles him, and what God has made, that you will not call unclean.
There are many differences as to what a church should be and what the Catholic Church is

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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@ImTheMostManlyMan

Catholicism is the oldest form of christianity. How can you worship god without worshipping the Christ? That doesn't make sense. It's just that at some point, some found it funkier to worship explicitely Jesus, but also because they disagreed with some doctrines of the Catholics and had to start their own fanclub; that doesn't make them more christian than the others. Catholics are just much more ritualistic than protestants, that's all.

Though it's funny how that distinction seems to be an American thing. I don't know for the rest of the world, but around here in central Europe, Catholicism and Protestantism are the two main branches of christianity, and if you said here that catholics aren't christians, you'd be laughed at by pretty much everyone.

TheMostManlyMan
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TheMostManlyMan
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Catholicism is the oldest form of christianity.
no because the earliest form of Christianity followed Jesus' and the apostle's teachings
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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no because the earliest form of Christianity followed Jesus' and the apostle's teachings

Yeah but that form is dead now. Besides, if you wanna go far far back, the first real trace of christianism is a Judaism offshoot from people originary from Canaan. No trace of Jesus back then as far as I know.
jeol
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jeol
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Yeah but that form is dead now. Besides, if you wanna go far far back, the first real trace of christianism is a Judaism offshoot from people originary from Canaan. No trace of Jesus back then as far as I know.

Christianity is Christianity, and nothing less than that. The church is the church, no matter what sector or denomination you are in. Isn't that the point of this thread?

Besides, we still follow the teachings of apostles of that era. Christianity was still in its early stages at that point, so there was not really any such thing as denomination. People believed and interpreted differently; that much is evident from Paul's letters (false teachers). Catholicism may be the oldest denomination that has followed through to this day, but as far as we know Protestant churches may follow the beliefs more closely than the Catholic church did. Either way, the Christians are still a part of the church.

Also, about the Judaism offshoot, that may be correct... There were likely false prophets who claimed they were the Messiah even before Jesus came to this earth (I mean, even the apostles thought he was going to return in a few days, and he hasn't returned in these two millennia). However, modern Christianity stems mostly off of the New Testament and the fact that Jesus was the Messiah and was resurrected.

Either way, doesn't really matter.

Anyways, Catholicism does have some pretty skewed teachings, I think. Take, for example, their tradition of transubstantiation is believed to transform the wine and the bread into the literal blood and flesh of Jesus. This occurs at every mass. So, at every mass (which could even take place every day - think, that's a lot of Jesus' flesh) they perform transubstantiation. Jesus was raised into heaven after his resurrection, so wouldn't his body be in heaven, technically? I'm not sure how that all works.

Also, Catholics pray to Mary, or through Mary. They believe that Mary was without sin, since she gave birth to Jesus, who was without sin. Wouldn't she be in part the Messiah, though? She couldn't be a normal person and have not sinned. It's human nature. Else, if she was truly perfect, wouldn't her heritage would have also been perfect, without sin? The Bible doesn't really support the fact of Mary being sinless, nor give any evidence of it. (Either way, praying to Mary or the saints would contradict the commandment to not pray to anything other than God. Reference.)

Sins aren't any worse than other sins, I don't think, contrary to what Catholicism teaches. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin, but either way if you sin you go to hell. If you ask for forgiveness, all your sins are forgiven.

Then there's also the part where they taxed the people so that they could get into heaven, or get their dead ancestors into heaven... I'm not so sure if they follow that through now, though.
... that doesn't make them more christian than the others. Catholics are just much more ritualistic than protestants, that's all.

It depends how the rituals affect their beliefs. Some of them contradict what the Bible teaches.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Christianity is Christianity, and nothing less than that. The church is the church, no matter what sector or denomination you are in. Isn't that the point of this thread?

Yeah, you're right of course.

However, modern Christianity stems mostly off of the New Testament and the fact that Jesus was the Messiah and was resurrected.

One more thing bizarre to me.. not recognizing both testaments as equal integer part of christianity (which they are).

Anyways, Catholicism does have some pretty skewed teachings, I think. Take, for example, their tradition of transubstantiation is believed to transform the wine and the bread into the literal blood and flesh of Jesus. This occurs at every mass. So, at every mass (which could even take place every day - think, that's a lot of Jesus' flesh) they perform transubstantiation. Jesus was raised into heaven after his resurrection, so wouldn't his body be in heaven, technically? I'm not sure how that all works.

Wouldn't be the first miracle claimed, eh?

Also, Catholics pray to Mary, or through Mary. They believe that Mary was without sin, since she gave birth to Jesus, who was without sin. Wouldn't she be in part the Messiah, though? She couldn't be a normal person and have not sinned. It's human nature. Else, if she was truly perfect, wouldn't her heritage would have also been perfect, without sin? The Bible doesn't really support the fact of Mary being sinless, nor give any evidence of it. (Either way, praying to Mary or the saints would contradict the commandment to not pray to anything other than God. Reference.)

I think you are not supposed to worship anything else than god as a deity. Which catholics don't do. They pray to god but address their prayers to Mary and the saints in hope that those in turn get the prayers to god directly. About them being sinless, they're considered saints, humans through which some of god's divine essence channels (or whatever); how could they sin if they're transfused by god?

Then there's also the part where they taxed the people so that they could get into heaven, or get their dead ancestors into heaven... I'm not so sure if they follow that through now, though.

Wasn't this done during the churches darkest chapters? Not trying to defend it, but no, it's not done anymore since a long time. And it was wrong, just as is auto-flagellation and other stuff like that.
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