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deathbewithyou
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deathbewithyou
534 posts
Peasant

Lance Armstrong once considered the greatest cyclist in the world, now condemned because of accusations of using drugs to win his races. The FBI came to investigate Armstrong and questioned many of the witnesses. However, These witnesses' testimonies were considered unreliable by the FBI and because all of Armstrongs drug test came out positive, the FBI decided that he was innocent.
Another group decided to investigate Armstrong and they began using the testimonies of the witnesses whom the FBI already considered unreliable. Because of this Armstrong is considered a liar and a cheat even though he has already taken hundreds of drug tests. UCL has agreed that Armstrong should be stripped of his titles.

Lance Armstrong is famous for having won several awards on the "Tour De France" and raises money to help stop cancer. Lance Armstrong will be stripped of his titles and will be considered a lyer and a cheat.

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HahiHa
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HahiHa
7,111 posts
Grand Duke

Things like donating to charities is a character witness, it shows the morals of the said person, and shows whether or not the person is more likely to do something such as doping or not.

I still fail to see how that would have prevented him from taking drugs. "More likely to"? You went down to my level

Baseless claims.

What about this comment? It's also mere accusations, but just think about it:

"Look at it this way. Every single big name that Armstring beat like a drum has been suspended for doping. Alex Zulle (1999), Jan Ullrich (2000, 2001, 2003), Andreas Klöden (2004), Ivan Basso (2005), not to mention other big names like Flloyd Landis, Richard Virenque, Alexandre Vinkourov, Bjarne Riis, Tyler Hamilton and on and on. You're going to tell me that Lance Amrstrong was soooooo naturally good that he could beat these guys as badly as he did while they were on performance enhancing drugs and he wasn't?"
Source

Because I'm defending Armstrong I'm an escapist now?

Never said that. A tad naive, perhaps.

Armstrong did not do that all alone, he had a lot of contacts. Here are some taken from this article:

Johan Bruyneel: He was Armstrongs chef in all seven victories. USADA says he was a central figure in the drug programs of the teams US Portal and Discovery Channel.

Michele Ferrari: The attorney's office of Padua claims this doctor, a former doctor of Armstrong, made a million business by selling drugs to athletes, among others also to Armstrongs team. In 2002, the Italian cycling association forbade all italian cyclists to contact Ferrari; that same association gave him a lifelong activity ban in 2006. In 2004, Ferrari was sentenced for sports fraud.

Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis: Former team members of Armstrong, they were both found guilty of doping later on and in their confessions also incriminated Armstrong.

Hein Verbruggen: Former UCI president, claimed that Armstrong is living proof of a cyclist that never uses drugs, but before that the UCI is accused to have covered in 1999 and 2001 positive drug tests of Armstrong.

Finally, there's also this article that I am not going to translate (you can use google translator :P), but it talks also of Lances connections to Ferrari, connections that he denied before the court. It also confirms that he was tested positive for corticoids in 1999, and that he provided an antedated medical certificate allowing him to take some, and the UCI left the charges.
There's also quite a lot about what the witnesses told (like them being threatened by him and so), but I don't think you will attach much importance to what several people witness.
danielo
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danielo
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Shepherd

Von, i think you got over offended. This is the way we talk in Armor games, sarcasem and Cynicism. So the FBI are the Blessed by god seeing only the truth and nothing else?

Ill ask you a question - why would the FBI arrest one of the best known and awared winner around the world USAian {American}? One of the best cyclist of all times, winnig hte TTF 7 times in a row?

So no, i dont say the FBI is a evil mastermind organization like some peoples in USA say Immediately after such Accusations, but what one person tag as "unreliable" other may consider otherwise. The Fbi is not always correct. Iraq 'Nuke making tracks' ring the bells?

In first, i didnt belived that he was using drugs too. He seems so, as you said, 'moral' and 'good guy'. But after more then 100 peoples Testified, and some evidence were founded, its seems more and more like he was a cheater. He was found using drugs way back, forgot the year, but his doctor said it was a "medicen agaisnt butt pains" or something. He left some races in suspicios circumstances.

And yes. its a blind defending. Its hard to see a model die. And a 'star' in his size is even harder.
So you got two options - accept the trial and the judge truth, or belive thet everyone ploted to blow him down, his team mates, his doctors. The Organizers, which used lance glory to attract more peoples for it, Peopels around the world which will watch teh race and rise the rating. So its not a "small group". Its not "them". who is "them"? death eaters? nazgols? who is the "them" you talk about?
home elfs? "1) acusing lance. 2) make him lose in the trial 3) ? 4) profit." {southpark referenc}?

By the way dude, its not the first time he got acused. But then the acuser were single peoples, now its all of them together.

handlerfan
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handlerfan
194 posts
Peasant

I want Lance Armstrong to be innocent of doping. I want him to be the one of the few cyclists in that era to be clear of taking performance enhancing drugs. At the same time the commentators on the radio seem pretty convinced that he is guilty and they're in a better position to tell than I am [they've read the evidence and aome of them know about cycling]. I feel sad that he's fallen from his pedestal, and then there's the empty space where the 'winner' of those Tour de Frances was. I suppose it's a sad reflection on how bad the cheating was at that time.

SSTG
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SSTG
12,677 posts
Templar

I want Lance Armstrong to be innocent of doping. I want him to be the one of the few cyclists in that era to be clear of taking performance enhancing drugs. At the same time the commentators on the radio seem pretty convinced that he is guilty and they're in a better position to tell than I am [they've read the evidence and aome of them know about cycling]. I feel sad that he's fallen from his pedestal, and then there's the empty space where the 'winner' of those Tour de Frances was. I suppose it's a sad reflection on how bad the cheating was at that time.

I makes me sad too because Lance was a model for all the young Americans who like to race. Unfortunately, there's big money to be made so people cheat. Lance is not the only one. It seems that there's 2 or 3 riders every year who get in trouble during the TDF.
I wish all the doping was banned so that everyone has a chance to win because they train hard and have a dream of becoming champion.

Anyway, it's not the end of the World because there are many young riders in the US who have a chance to become champion one day.
goumas13
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goumas13
4,776 posts
Regent

Sadly, cycling has a culture of doping. Professional cycling is a truly rotten sport.
One of Armstrong's former teammates, Levi Leipheimer, wrote in his confession that professional cycling until recently was:
"[...] a sport where some team managers and doctors coordinated and facilitated the use of banned substances and methods by their riders. A sport where the athletes at the highest level - perhaps without exception - used banned substances. A sport where doping was so accepted that riders from different teams - who were competitors on the road - coordinated their doping to keep up with other riders doing the same thing."
(Link to his full statement, it's a pretty interesting read)

Anyway, seeing how prevalent doping was in cycling during this era I find it very hard to believe other sportsmen and woman weren't doing the same at this point in time. I wonder how many other "champions" were using drugs.
It's just disgraceful.

JiggerHaggis
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JiggerHaggis
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Shepherd

I think it is dumb, as you said he passed all his tests, and the only thing they actually have him on is his decision to stop fighting them.

Clancy12
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Clancy12
6,404 posts
Baron

In my opinion Lance's titles for the Tour de France should be taken away immediately and he should be thrown in jail! He should from now on, be know as a cheater and should be frowned upon by the entire world. It is wrong to do anything like he did no matter what the stakes are.

VonHeisenbourg
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VonHeisenbourg
377 posts
Shepherd

I think it is dumb, as you said he passed all his tests, and the only thing they actually have him on is his decision to stop fighting them.

And the witnesses, but I do agree with you. I do believe he is innocent.

One thing I do not understand is how it is legal to charge him with this. Once charged with a crime (doping in this case) and if you are acquitted of it as he was charged of doping earlier and was deemed innocent shouldn't double jeopardy have been applied?
HahiHa
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HahiHa
7,111 posts
Grand Duke

Funny you stopped replying the moment I posted some real arguments

as you said he passed all his tests,

Again, that's merely almost true.

One thing I do not understand is how it is legal to charge him with this. Once charged with a crime (doping in this case) and if you are acquitted of it as he was charged of doping earlier and was deemed innocent shouldn't double jeopardy have been applied?

I don't quite know what double jeopardy is exactly, but I guess it's because with the current accusations, the previous acquittals are challenged, since assumedly wrong, and thus cannot really be taken as base.
VonHeisenbourg
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VonHeisenbourg
377 posts
Shepherd

Funny you stopped replying the moment I posted some real arguments

I stopped because what you are posting is redundant and silly and your arguements were very poor. I don't believe in arguing redundantly my friend.

Arguing your &quotoints" (can I even call it a point) would be rediculous. + I don't argue with people who insult, which you do occasionally.

I refrained from telling you this because I would've been rude, but that comment of "real arguments" got me to say this.

P.S. You don't many to any real arguments, mostly it's paranoia and conspiracy theories.

I don't quite know what double jeopardy is exactly

Double jeopardy makes it so that you can only be charged with a particular crime once. If acquitted theoretically you shouldn't EVER be charged again, even if after you were acquitted you ended up telling everyone that you were indeed guilty you still can't be charged with it again unless someone tampered (bribed) with the jury.

So even if the previous acquittals are challenged to my knowledge it wouldn't matter AT ALL. Another legal problem is you only have about 7 years after a crime (except for homicide) to charge someone with a crime. So since it has been more than 7 years since he won most of those competitions he shouldn't be charged with it.

If Lance wanted to I have no doubt he could've entered a stage of arbitration and won 101 different ways.
VonHeisenbourg
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VonHeisenbourg
377 posts
Shepherd

P.S. You don't many to any real arguments

You don't have many to any


My apologies, that is what I meant to say.
danielo
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danielo
1,776 posts
Shepherd

this time the tour had investigated, not the FBI, so its a diffrunte case. secondely, more withness have talked, which opened the case again, and more evidence were discovered.

By your logic, if you cant convict a criminal, and then you found in his house 5 bodies and a chainsaw, you cant put him in jail as he was already announced innocent.

So all of these doctors, judges, teammates and rivals lie to take him off? and its aall a big concpiracy? its like saying you dont grow up, the world is shrinking.

As i said when yoo raged quit, i in first belived too he was innocent. but there are too many Evidence. Im sorry dude, but your hero is down.

HahiHa
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HahiHa
7,111 posts
Grand Duke

P.S. You don't many to any real arguments, mostly it's paranoia and conspiracy theories.

Have you actually read my last post on page 2? If you call this paranoia and conspiracy, I don't know what you need to convict someone.
danielo
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danielo
1,776 posts
Shepherd

oh and by the way, about your saying that

Things like donating to charities is a character witness, it shows the morals of the said person, and shows whether or not the person is more likely to do something such as doping or not.
. Hitler was a vegaterian who claimed that hunting is unhuman and ciggaretes are bad for your health. that make all of the holocaust, killing of millions of jews, roma tribe {also known as Gypsies}, gays, communist, mental illed peoples, jazz fans and so on and so on? no. a man can do good things but do bad things too. A man can be the best father, a loving son and a supporting brother, but yet killing a taxi driver 'for the thing'. In Israel they are called "kids from good families". Moshe Ben-Ivgi and Arbel Aloni. Ben-Ivgi fled to argentina, and they dont agree to give him to us to serve his punishment, as in argentina, a murdur done by a kid go to much less time then in Israel.
danielo
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danielo
1,776 posts
Shepherd

'for the thing'
sorry, bad translation. "for fun".

and so on and so on
not relevant or not his fault, as he liked dogs? no. So armstrong gave money for charity. but it was fake money. a money he got by cheating. like al- kapone who donated money and fet the hungries.
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