ForumsWEPRHow old do you think the universe is?

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dr_doughnut
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dr_doughnut
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I don't personally believe in billions an millions of years, but I want to know what people think.

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TerminatorXM214
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TerminatorXM214
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Well, Sal, why would God need pre-matter to create the universe? He's God!
Genesis 1:3 says: "And God said 'Let there be light', and there was light".
He just spoke it into existence.
He didn't use anything else, he just spoke. I don't believe in a pre-universe, or pre-matter. Jeol and I had a conversation about that somewhere else. I'd be happy to talk to you about it too.

Salvidian
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Sure, He's God, but why would there be material on earth that's older than 6000 years? And how would dinosaurs fit in? The stories predating Adam & Eve don't seem to fit into history scientifically. Like, at all.

Unless of course you mean He created aged material.

TerminatorXM214
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Erm, I don't know what you mean by "Aged Material", or stories predating Adam and Eve, so please elaborate.
If you're talking about the first chapter of Genesis, it's generally believed that Moses was the one who physically wrote them down, and he got the info from the Guy who was actually there. He was on speaking terms with God, which is pretty amazing if you think about it.

Salvidian
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Erm, I don't know what you mean by "Aged Material", or stories predating Adam and Eve, so please elaborate.


The Bible implies that the earth is 6000 years old. Earth isn't 6000 years old, so the material would've had to have been pre-aged. By pre-aged, I mean old when it was created. As for stories predating Adam & Eve, I literally mean the stuff that happened before Adam & Eve came along and met.

If you're talking about the first chapter of Genesis, it's generally believed that Moses was the one who physically wrote them down, and he got the info from the Guy who was actually there. He was on speaking terms with God, which is pretty amazing if you think about it.


You see, this something I don't get. God lectures Moses on the Bible, Moses writes part of it, and God is said to have only approved it? That's a circle to nowhere. It's contradictory. If God lectured Moses, technically He wrote it, or a least came up with it, and not Moses.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Seriously? They go on to say that "Some astronomers believe that this crisis will pass as soon as measurements improve", which implies that they just don't know.

1) Not quite. It means they know at least two different ways, and need more data to find out which one applies. That's not "just not knowing".
Besides, the last part gives more support for the big bang theory, in case you stopped reading where it suited you best.

2) What about Kasics links? No word was lost on them yet.

It explains it nicely, but why don't you at least consider that?

It pictureswonderfully what a group of people used to believe at that time, and it has been considered and reconsidered ever since then. The problem is, it just doens't fit our observations anymore.

Erm, I don't know what you mean by "Aged Material", or stories predating Adam and Eve, so please elaborate.

I think what he meant is material created artificially older, because if it really is only 6000 years old, god is definitely deceitful.
Kasic
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He just spoke it into existence.


Speech is impossible without a medium for sound waves to travel through. Sorry, try again.
Salvidian
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I think what he meant is material created artificially older, because if it really is only 6000 years old, god is definitely deceitful.


This is exactly what I meant. Thanks.
But keep in mind that I don't believe that, but instead the pre-universe matter idea.

Speech is impossible without a medium for sound waves to travel through. Sorry, try again.


I would guess it's another metaphor. But that takes it back to the pre-universe idea, maybe He just shaped stuff that was already there.

By the way, there are waves that can travel without mediums. Not sound waves though.
TerminatorXM214
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The Bible implies that the earth is 6000 years old. Earth isn't 6000 years old, so the material would've had to have been pre-aged. By pre-aged, I mean old when it was created. As for stories predating Adam & Eve, I literally mean the stuff that happened before Adam & Eve came along and met.


Uh, the Earth is appr 5-7000 years old. There is not pre-aging. Some people say the mountains and canyons couldn't have formed so fast, but if you read further there is a giant flood... wipes out everything. That could explain what you're talking about.

You see, this something I don't get. God lectures Moses on the Bible, Moses writes part of it, and God is said to have only approved it? That's a circle to nowhere. It's contradictory. If God lectured Moses, technically He wrote it, or a least came up with it, and not Moses.


You got it. Yes, technically God wrote it. Thus the name "Word of God". Moses just put it on paper.
Moses did not imagine or make up any part of it, because he wasn't there. So why not just write down the words of the God, who was there?
I meant that Moses took a pencil or whatever he used, and wrote it on paper, or whatever he used. Papyrus, possibly.

The part that he was there for, he probably wrote, but with the approval of God.

HahiHa, Kasic's first link cites other things, such as the big bang, his second used other Evolutionary dates as references, and his third is a little hard to follow without several college degrees, so I can't give my opinion.
TerminatorXM214
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Speech is impossible without a medium for sound waves to travel through. Sorry, try again.

Ah, but define speech. Since when does it have to be speech that we understand? Those words created the universe, what exactly limits them to our understanding of sound travel?
EmperorPalpatine
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It doesn't seem feasible to me that the universe was created by the Big Bang.

Do you have a model for how a god made it (something beyond "idk, but goddidit")?

Christianity, however, has existed for 2013 years and has stood the test of time

Buddhism and Hinduism are much older and are still around.

I doubt stories could be believed so strongly without there have being something religiously spectacular that could have happened.

Or thousands of years of violent indoctrination...

Now, for stories occurring [before] Adam & Eve, well, let's just say I don't believe in them.

What reason do you have to accept the story of two magic trees and a talking snake?
Salvidian
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Look, I know I'm going like an atheist here, but I hope you understand where I'm getting at.

Uh, the Earth is appr 5-7000 years old.


Scientific evidence?

Some people say the mountains and canyons couldn't have formed so fast, but if you read further there is a giant flood... wipes out everything.


Alright, take Iowa for an example. Iowa is a moderately sized state in the middle of the United States. Iowa is split up into two sections: one section is completely flat, and the other is mountainous and hilly. The flat side is flat because glaciers sat there for thousands of years during the Ice Age, which flattened the land. The mountainous side had some glaciers in it, but many of them didn't go up north, for whatever reason. So the glaciers ended up melting, and waters rushed all about creating mountains, and eventually part of the Mississippi river. If everything was covered in water, we would have mountains everywhere. Currents in the ocean don't flatten the rock; they erode it and disperse it, the rock builds up in certain areas, and forms mountains underwater. Plus, that takes thousands of years; Noah was only 800 something when he died, right?

You got it. Yes, technically God wrote it. Thus the name "Word of God". Moses just put it on paper.
Moses did not imagine or make up any part of it, because he wasn't there. So why not just write down the words of the God, who was there?
I meant that Moses took a pencil or whatever he used, and wrote it on paper, or whatever he used. Papyrus, possibly.

The part that he was there for, he probably wrote, but with the approval of God.


So what you're saying is that God didn't physically write it, right? I suppose that makes sense.
Salvidian
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Do you have a model for how a god made it (something beyond "idk, but goddidit")?


God somehow changed the energies matter possessed. Energy and matter cannot be created nor destroyed, so God could only have changed the energies, according to science anyway. To make light, he took some sort of other energy, let it be heat, mechanical, or something else, and transformed it into light energy. If God is everywhere, maybe it's more of a permanent conceptual thing.

Buddhism and Hinduism are much older and are still around.


Forgot those two. Buddhism and Hinduism focus on souls quite a bit, but I'm hazy on the topic of souls, so, honestly, I couldn't say much about them.

Or thousands of years of violent indoctrination...


But where would those original ideas come from? Some crazy guy running around telling everyone to change their religions because he says so? Take Christianity's birth: how would people be swayed from their religions so easily when the other religions are indoctrinated, and without Jesus being "magical"?

What reason do you have to accept the story of two magic trees and a talking snake?


Metaphorical. For what, I have no idea. In fact I'm not too keen on the entire book of Genesis, but I know for a fact that most of the first chapter is poorly communicated./outright false.
EmperorPalpatine
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Buddhism and Hinduism focus on souls quite a bit,

And Christianity doesn't?

Metaphorical. For what, I have no idea. In fact I'm not too keen on the entire book of Genesis, but I know for a fact that most of the first chapter is poorly communicated./outright false.

The problem with that is the only reason Jesus came was to cancel the original sin debts of mankind caused by Adam and Eve. Without that story as literal, there's no point to his sacrifice.
SonOfVader
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Technically speaking, the universe is as old as time itself.

Salvidian
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And Christianity doesn't?


I didn't clarify that well. I meant Christianity has a stronger base for the topic of souls, and it's one that I can somewhat understand. Reincarnation seems crazy to me. When I was talking about the other three religions earlier, I was comparing their realism to me. It's kind of hard to explain with you having my perspective I guess.

The problem with that is the only reason Jesus came was to cancel the original sin debts of mankind caused by Adam and Eve. Without that story as literal, there's no point to his sacrifice.


Adam = all men.
Eve = all women.
Apple = temptation.
Eden = peace, happiness, prosperity, good stuff.
Serpent = those who advertise temptations.

It can be considered metaphorically and still make sense. The children of Adam & Eve could be thought as surnames.

Technically speaking, the universe is as old as time itself.


But how old is time?
As old as the universe, right?
And time and space is relative.
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