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Tensions with Iran

Posted Nov 12, '12 at 10:26pm

hojoko

hojoko

556 posts

The USN *does* keep world trade lanes open because it keeps its own trade lanes open. He US trades with a vast number of states, and so the converse is that, through their trading with the US, all trade lanes are kept open.

You are correct that the US Navy does do that, and they do a pretty good job of it, but my point was that the EU (or the European nations of NATO plus France) would also be able to monitor their own sea lanes and trading routes if the United States were not there. We are not necessary to the continuity of trade, it just so happens that we help a lot.

And I highlight the US' military power because it is this power that allows it to keep everything else. Without the ability to defend itself, the other things that made America great would not long exist.

This is actually the exact point made in Empire. However, I disagree. At one point, this was most certainly true. Over time, as the free-market globalized, more and more foreign powers have invested in global markets, especially the American market. I'd say our greatest power comes from corporations and their global influence. The loss of Coca-Cola, Apple, Microsoft (just to name a few) and, not to forget our most powerful asset, the rampant American consumerism, would utterly destroy most of the first- and some of the second- world economies. That's ample enough defense from foreign powers for now (although it might change in the future). However, I do agree that the military is currently necessary for defense from lesser powers, terrorists, or just insane nations (North Korea anyone?)

 

Posted Nov 13, '12 at 8:38am

partydevil

partydevil

5,087 posts

a) Import/Export ratios are an indicator of a country's economic value.

maybe import and export are not the right words.
i mend that they still buy more then that they sell.
i'm used to be working whit import and export myself. thats why i probably made the mistake.

That the loss of one of the worlds largest trading blocs (NAFTA) would constitute a 'slap'. It'd be more like a brutal mugging and the ensuing hospitalization

i'll be happy to get through all that if i get in return that the usa will be gone.

When Rome fell it plunged Europe in a thousand year dark age. Now throw in globalism, and you're cooking up a sh*t storm.

do you live in the year 0 or the year 2012?

The problem is that the world economy is too dependent upon the US for trade. China and India are heavily dependent upon the US for trade. The removal of the US from this trade triangle will will quickly bring down these two nations because other trade parterners won't be able to make up the difference. And so in very short order the world's three largest economies are gone. KO blow to the world.

simply not true. as we had seen in 2008/9 they are perfectly capable to move their trade away from usa and spread it over the rest of the world.

Key words being "centralized government." This just shows your lack of reading ability

plz. don't be so stupid....
when we were building these greenhouses. usa had nothing to do whit it.
it was a dutch company and the congo government.

The next time you call someone a liar, you might actually want to show some proof that said individual is actually a liar.

when people are simply to stupid and unwilling to acknowlets they are wrong. then i do not feel the need for this. it is only a waste of time to get proof for someone who is unwilling to agree they are wrong.
now don't say your not unwilling. ive seen more close minded americans who think the same as you.
i can only suggest to open your mind.

that the US Navy is important in protecting the nation's trade

importent yes.
but not that importend that whitout you everyhing will be doomed and all trade roads will close etc etc what you were spewing last time. that simply is a lie.

I'll do that right when you learn to spell "better" and "knowledge." :)

this is i-net, get used to it.

Silly me! Uganda is clearly the greatest nation on Earth! How could I be sooooooo naive?

actualy, uganda is fighting the somalian pirates. usa does not dare because they can't do it financially.
at this point uganda is better then usa.
anyway, yes you are naive. to think usa is better then anyone els. -.-'
naive or not informed enough. you choose.

You are correct that the US Navy does do that

by far they are not the only one.

This is actually the exact point made in Empire. However, I disagree. At one point, this was most certainly true. Over time, as the free-market globalized, more and more foreign powers have invested in global markets, especially the American market. I'd say our greatest power comes from corporations and their global influence. The loss of Coca-Cola, Apple, Microsoft (just to name a few) and, not to forget our most powerful asset, the rampant American consumerism, would utterly destroy most of the first- and some of the second- world economies. That's ample enough defense from foreign powers for now (although it might change in the future). However, I do agree that the military is currently necessary for defense from lesser powers, terrorists, or just insane nations (North Korea anyone?)

i disagree whit both of you. (your partly true whit the companies part)
if military power was the most importend thing. then how come japan still exists? and how come japan has 1 of the best economies on the planet?
no debt, highly advansed, and nearly no enemy's.

only showing your muscle will make people hate you. and that is exactly what happend whit the 27 wars usa was part of after ww2.
27 wars in 60 year. that has never happend ever in history. about a new war every 2 year. that is why people hate you and that is why you need to protect yourself.

i say japan is superior then usa. solely because they are not power hungry violent maniacs that want to be the "hero" all the time. as the americans are.
the world will be much better whitout these violent maniacs.

 

Posted Nov 13, '12 at 8:39am

thepunisher93

thepunisher93

1,858 posts

How is this relative, exactly? And since quoting the employee of a state, heres what the US said happened to their drone: crash! And whats more, US Officials say the Iranians painted the drone and concealed the bottom of it with curtains when they revealed it to hide damage sustained when it crashed! ZOMG!

Oh am I to believe that nation who started av war that affected millions by falsely claiming WMD threat?
Some thing you should read.

 

Posted Nov 13, '12 at 11:05am

DSM

DSM

795 posts

Thanks for watching for me.

no problem, it normal for everybody but americans to care about other human beings.

In today's modern world, Russia lacks the ability to project its power outside of its immediate region

why should they? they are not stupid enough to go around and waste money on killing people.

Having an incredibly large army means nothing if you can't get it where you need it.

why would anyone need their army outside the country.

50000 American Dead for 1000000 Viet Cong dead is hardly a failure militarily.

Go read some books and educate yourself. What am I saying, this was expected from a child. Those your nation killed was nothing but civilians. Your nation killed women and children, the same way you do in the current war. So yes, it was a failure.

The US failed because it was unable to maintain a high enough support for the war and allowed politicians to dictate to generals, as opposed to letting the generals do their job. Vietnam was a loss, but not because of military defeat.

You can make as many excuses you want, it doesn't change the fact, that it was a completely failure, both military and political.

Lol, do you even know how old I am?

10 if not younger.

Don't you wish?

I wish for the world peace, if that what you are asking, or are you just trying to avoid the statements, because you know it right.

 

Posted Nov 13, '12 at 4:44pm

hojoko

hojoko

556 posts

maybe import and export are not the right words.
i mend that they still buy more then that they sell.
i'm used to be working whit import and export myself. thats why i probably made the mistake.

No worries. I see why it would be confusing, and you're on the right track, but there's a little more to it. See, much of what America buys are products that American companies have manufactured through foreign resources and factories. Essentially, our main export is purchase which comes back in the form of profitable goods, which increases investment capital and allows those companies to pay for the production of more goods. As most American companies don't actually produce their own goods, it stands to reason that we import (or buy) much more than we export (or sell).

For example-

Apple is one of the largest computer developers in the United States. However, their Macbooks aren't made by factories in Detroit or Pittsburgh. Instead, the pay factories in Taiwan to produce their laptops for much cheaper, with materials bought from Mexico, Canada and Asia. The laptops are then imported into America, where they are sold for profit by Apple, which both allows Apple to continue paying Taiwanese factories for the production of their Laptops, as well as increasing the values of Apple's shares in the stock market--leading to greater investment capital by both nation and foreign citizens or corporations.

Again, Apple is essentially exporting ideas and money for the import of physical goods.

This of course means that America relies on many foreign companies for the production of our consumer products. However, the flip-side is that those foreign companies rely on American consumerism for their profit. It's an upward spiral of international economic profit (Hence, my great appreciation of the free market).

i'll be happy to get through all that if i get in return that the usa will be gone.

You don't seem to understand. It's not something that would be easy to recover from. In fact, it might be impossible to revitalize the market should we lose one of the major blocs (whether it's NAFTA or the EU), and a new market would have to be developed all over again. In the meantime, the loss of wealth would be staggering, in the form of extraordinarily high unemployment (much, much higher than Spain's current 50%) and poverty.

simply not true. as we had seen in 2008/9 they are perfectly capable to move their trade away from usa and spread it over the rest of the world.

Greece? Spain? Ireland? They certainly haven't had an easy time. In fact, if you look at a map of world GDP growth you'll find that the economies of most of the EU and NAFTA have been in decline. And this was just triggered by a housing market crash in America.

The only countries that profited or grew were countries either not directly related to the well being of the American economy or counties that could perform cheap labor and services for the rest of the world (which was direly needed), i.e. India and China. And, for some reason Poland. I'm not sure what's going on with Poland.

by far they are not the only one.

I thought that was implied in the rest of the paragraph when I stated the EU could do just as good a job as America could. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

i disagree whit both of you. (your partly true whit the companies part)
if military power was the most importend thing. then how come japan still exists? and how come japan has 1 of the best economies on the planet?
no debt, highly advansed, and nearly no enemy's.

Japan actually has a defense force which they plan on increasing the budget for over the next five years.

But again, I believe the core of American (and Japanese) influence lies in their market power. Militaries are just necessary for defense.

27 wars in 60 year. that has never happend ever in history. about a new war every 2 year. that is why people hate you and that is why you need to protect yourself.

False. In the past 3,400 years, there have only been an estimated 268 years of peace. America is not unique in that respect.

i say japan is superior then usa. solely because they are not power hungry violent maniacs that want to be the "hero" all the time. as the americans are.

Read up.

Specifically starting with the Meiji Restoration until the end of WWII, I think you'll find that the Japanese were incredibly nationalistic and violent. However, Japan has a long, long history of wars between rival shogunates and clans.

 

Posted Nov 13, '12 at 5:48pm

thepunisher93

thepunisher93

1,858 posts

False. In the past 3,400 years, there have only been an estimated 268 years of peace. America is not unique in that respect.

British empire had 121 wars (including rebellions) between
from 1700 to 2011
that is one war every two and a half year.
and I count 18 rebellions.

 

Posted Nov 13, '12 at 6:12pm

hojoko

hojoko

556 posts

British empire had 121 wars (including rebellions) between
from 1700 to 2011
that is one war every two and a half year.
and I count 18 rebellions.

Exactly! The argument that America is an especially violent nation is invalid.

 

Posted Nov 14, '12 at 9:20am

partydevil

partydevil

5,087 posts

You don't seem to understand. It's not something that would be easy to recover from.

even if i bleed dead. it will be worth it.

Greece? Spain? Ireland? They certainly haven't had an easy time.

last time i checked we were talking about china.

Japan actually has a defense force

a small defence force that most countries can win from.
if military power was the most importent thing. then how come no one has puched over the japanese government yet?

Militaries are just necessary for defense.

yes.
but that is not how the usa has used it's military for the last 65 year.
they used it to attack.

False. In the past 3,400 years, there have only been an estimated 268 years of peace. America is not unique in that respect.

usa has more years in war then that years they exist. (due to more wars at the same time)
also are all those wars you talk about not the cause of 1 country.
1 country involved in a new war every 2 year sure has never happened.

Specifically starting with the Meiji Restoration until the end of WWII, I think you'll find that the Japanese were incredibly nationalistic and violent. However, Japan has a long, long history of wars between rival shogunates and clans.

as i did all the time. i'm talking about now and after ww2.
ofcourse i know their history and their part of ww2.
but i say they have gone the right way after ww2. and usa has gone the wrong way since ww2.

British empire had 121 wars (including rebellions) between
from 1700 to 2011
that is one war every two and a half year.
and I count 18 rebellions.

i'm talking whitout rebbellions.
i mean mean full size wars that takes years. not wars that toke 1 week as the british had some.

also were the britsh very hated in the past in the colonies they concurred. and were they seen as violent people. just as the africans saw the dutch during the VOC.
but i'm not talking about history remember.
i'm talking about today. and today USA is the killing psychopath under all the nations.

now if you change your policy and can show for lets say 50 year that you are no longer power hungry killers. then i will be happy to discard that opinion. but it doesn't change that you are power hungry killers today.

 

Posted Nov 14, '12 at 4:25pm

danielo

danielo

1,365 posts

True partydevil, because attacking the nazis was such a cruel act. driving the comumnism and defending democracy {Yes, democracy. In places russia controled there was a dictatorship. in USA controled there is a democracy} was so evil. You take this as grunted partydevil. USA saved the western world and life style *** more then once. As much as i dont like some aspects of USA, I cant deny that.

And i didnt got in what japan went better? by the fact they dont go to wars anymore? By the fact they are a somewhat Minor nation in the political world? Its like saying that Lichtenstein is a better country.

If USA is down, our beloced western life style and cultur will be gone too.
What do you prefer? The Muslim Theocracy's, the Slavic facsism or the Chiniese Iron fist party? I dont say all the muslims country are like this or all the slavic nations are the same, but these are the othere powers in our world now. so you tell me - in which will you prefer to live? USA, Russia, China or Iran?

Iran is Threatening that they will destroy Israel. They are Threatening that they will destroy USA. they are Threatening that they will destroy Brittiain. So USA need to sit back and say "but tehy are the under dog! we need to make it even first"? They need to let Afganistan become a Global Terrorism center, because drones are unfair? because the poor taliban just try to save the country froom teh evil USA militia?

So yea, USA was in some wars since 1945. And what is that? Vietnam is not a democracy now? Korea is not a big north korea, there is a democratic free south part? There is a democratic bubble in the middle east, and not another curropted Muslim country {i mean come on, Assad, mubarak and the rest of teh gang are not a elected presidents. as much as these countries might be OK, there ruling class is not so innocent}.
Do USA need to sorry for that? For trying to make the world better?

You Liberals are making me sick sometimes.
There is a joke - what the diffrunce between a liberal and a cannibale? Cannibalse dont eat there own peoples.

Everything that is not losing is wrong. USA? wrong. Israel? wrong.
Belive me, in Iram you will never be able to write these opinions. In china too. and in Russia {putin is behind you!}.

 

Posted Nov 14, '12 at 4:51pm

thepunisher93

thepunisher93

1,858 posts

True partydevil, because attacking the nazis was such a cruel act. driving the comumnism and defending democracy {Yes, democracy. In places russia controled there was a dictatorship. in USA controled there is a democracy} was so evil. You take this as grunted partydevil. USA saved the western world and life style *** more then once. As much as i dont like some aspects of USA, I cant deny that.

While supporting dictatorships in Pakistan, South Americas and Arabia?
They helped Europe because it was in their advantage.
It was more of a great game B/W Reds and Capitalists.

If USA is down, our beloced western life style and cultur will be gone too.
What do you prefer? The Muslim Theocracy's, the Slavic facsism or the Chiniese Iron fist party? I dont say all the muslims country are like this or all the slavic nations are the same, but these are the othere powers in our world now. so you tell me - in which will you prefer to live? USA, Russia, China or Iran?

What if I love to live in Iran as it is but america shoves its snout there and installs an america's ***** "democratic" govrnment like Afghanistan or Iraq.

Iran is Threatening that they will destroy Israel. They are Threatening that they will destroy USA. they are Threatening that they will destroy Brittiain. So USA need to sit back and say "but tehy are the under dog! we need to make it even first"? They need to let Afganistan become a Global Terrorism center, because drones are unfair? because the poor taliban just try to save the country froom teh evil USA militia?

Lasrt time I checked, Israel and USA were threatning to use force.
As for afghanistan, america did interfare for no reason.
Taliban offerred Binladen

So yea, USA was in some wars since 1945. And what is that? Vietnam is not a democracy now? Korea is not a big north korea, there is a democratic free south part?

At cost of ! million causaulities, Vietnam still is a Socialist republic.
US lost this round of the game
Korea is a Tie, both players get 5 points.

There is a democratic bubble in the middle east, and not another curropted Muslim country {i mean come on, Assad, mubarak and the rest of teh gang are not a elected presidents. as much as these countries might be OK, there ruling class is not so innocent}.
Do USA need to sorry for that? For trying to make the world better?

Do we really have to go through this again?

 
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