ForumsWEPRGun control in the US

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theEPICgameKING
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theEPICgameKING
906 posts
Blacksmith

Discuss. General Tavern rules apply. (No mudslinging, be respectful, etc.)
I'll open with the statement that people should not have guns. No one at all, except the armed forces, and even then, keep the guns on the bases. Cops should carry riot shields and armor instead of guns. If they need crowd control, use Water Cannons.
Supporting evidence: the following skit:
What's your reason?
Setting: A gun shop, modern day.
A Customer walks into the gun shop and asks the Shopkeeper, "Hi, i'd like to buy a gun please."
The Shopkeeper pulls out an application form and asks the customer "Alright, what's your reason for wanting to buy a gun?"
The Customer says "I need one for personal protection."
The Shopkeeper nods. "I have just the thing for you, I guarantee you cannot get any more personal protection than this baby right here. What i'm about to show you offers so much protection, it can stop a shotgun shell."
The customer, very interested, stares at a full-size Riot Shield, the kind the police use. He scoffs. "That's not what I want, I want a gun!"
The Shopkeeper shrugs. "Are you sure? This fine piece of equipment will protect you more than a gun ever will! It's very strong, reinforced titanium and kevlar..." by now, the angry Customer has left.
Later, another Customer enters. "Hi, I need a gun."
Again, the Shopkeeper clicks his pen and pulls out an application form. "For what reason?" he asks.
The Customer hesitates, than says "Hunting."
The shopkeeper smiles. "Of course! I love to hunt. Hunting is a wonderful sport. I guarantee that this item will give you the maximum amount of satisfaction you can ever get from hunting! Here, this is the sport at its peak." And he pulls out a Crossbow, complete with crosshairs for better accuracy.
The customer shakes his head. "No, I want a gun." he states.
The shopkeeper reluctantly puts away the Crossbow. "Are you sure? With a gun, it's so...boring, just pulling a trigger. And it's unfair to the animal, with this you give the deer a chance and have to chase it for up to an hour, just like the Native Americans did back in the day! Unless of course..." He fails to finish his sentence, as the pissed off customer has left in a huff.
Later, a third customer walks in. "Hi, I'd like to buy a gun." he says.
The shopkeeper holds his pen at the ready. "For what reason, sir?" he asks.
The customer glares. "I dont need a reason, read the god **** second amendment "THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS." It's in the constitution you idiot!
The shopkeeper merely smiles. "Of course, I have the perfect thing for you. This gun is covered under Second Amendment laws, guaranteed!" And he holds up a 200-year-old, civil-war-era musket, complete with rusty bayonet.
The customer shrieks. "No, man! I want a Glock, a shotgun, something better than that civil war crap!"
The shopkeeper merely smiles. "I'm sorry sir, please come back when they update the second amendment to include those types of guns. Here, i'll even give you a discount..." the shopkeeper holds out a discount to the enraged customer, who tears it in half and leaves.
Fourthly, another Customer walks in. "I really need a gun, now." He says.
The Shopkeeper holds his pen and application form ready. "For what reason, sir?" he asks.
Instead of stating his reason this time, the Customer snatches the application form and looks at it. There, in the spot titled "Reasons" is a circle for "other".
"Other! That's my reason!" the Customer declares triumphantly.
The shopkeeper shrugs. "Very good answer sir." he says, while pressing a button under the counter. Two cops arrive at the shop in less than a minute and cuff the Customer.
"Hey! What the *PROFANITY* ARE YOU *PROFANITY* GUYS DOING? I'VE DONE NOTHING WRONG!" He yells, almost breaking the glass of the windows.
"Actually, you have." The Shopkeeper begins. "the "other" reason, by exclusion of the other reason, can only include wanting to kill or rob someone. Therefore, you were thinking about commiting a crime when you selected "Other" as your reason. Caught you red-handed, trying to buy the tools necessary to commiting a crime. You confessed to it when you selected "Other"! Take him downtown, please." The cops nod and take the Customer away. The last thing he hears from the Shopkeeper is "Oh, and I knew it was you all those times!"

Moral of the story: You do NOT need a gun for a particular activity. In any given activity (And I challenge you to give me a valid, legal activity for which you would need to personally own a gun), there are many other options. Why buy a gun for personal protection when a Riot Shield blocks shotgun shells? Why buy a gun for hunting when the point of hunting (and every other sport) is satisfaction, and since you get more satisfaction with more challenge, and since a crossbow offers more challenge than a gun, you'll get more satisfaction with the crossbow. Why buy a gun based on the Second Amendment when the Colonial-age guns were either giant cannons or black-powder, muzzle-loading Muskets? Did the Founding Fathers have AR-15's, and SPAZ-12 shotguns,And AK 47s, not to mention all the accessories like laser scopes and hollow-point bullets? I dont think so!

The only way you can disprove my argument is to give me a valid, LEGAL activity which requires you to personally own a gun. This excludes Skeet-shooting, because the facility can and should/will provide the gun. Until anyone can do that, YOU DONT NEED A GUN, NO ONE NEEDS GUNS! They're WAY too dangerous and make it too easy to kill someone! Why have something you dont need?

  • 1,127 Replies
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,608 posts
Regent

You shouldn't take away our rights to have a gun. After all, it is the second amendment. When people do attempt to ban/take away/restrict guns, people will keep breaking the new gun laws. It WILL happen. If they do end up taking the guns away, well **** me, I don't know what our country, Great America, has come to.


Sticking to a law that is outdated is the worse possible idea. As society progresses, our values and needs change. Whilst the rest of the world has moved on with the right to bear arms being phased out, and as a result, seeing an increasingly low gun homicide rate, America does the opposite.
SSTG
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SSTG
12,678 posts
Templar

Sticking to a law that is outdated is the worse possible idea. As society progresses, our values and needs change. Whilst the rest of the world has moved on with the right to bear arms being phased out, and as a result, seeing an increasingly low gun homicide rate, America does the opposite.

Yep, typical Conservatives. They're obsessed with guns, are afraid of the rest of the World because they don't understand them nor do they care anyway.
When there's a conflict they want to shoot first then talk.
They want to keep living in the past, trust crooked corporations even though they often abuse people, hate the government when the president is Democrat.
Hate gays and are against abortion (telling other people what to do) but when it's about them they whine like babies if someone tells them they're wrong. What a bunch of hypocrites!
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,608 posts
Regent

Yep, typical Conservatives. They're obsessed with guns, are afraid of the rest of the World because they don't understand them nor do they care anyway.


Let's not go that way too. Many Democrats still want laxer laws.
Masterforger
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Masterforger
1,829 posts
Shepherd

Make guns difficult to obtain. Give guns coders so only their owners can fire them, and the shot is tracked. Guns are part of our modern society. They are impossible to get rid of. "Let's make guns illegal" is a stupid idea because voila, criminals are the only ones owning guns.

Sure, your ideas of peace and prosperity for all mankind. Except for one flaw. We're men. The most of us like power, and what bigger portrayal of power than a gun? When pointing it at someone, loaded and safety off, you hold the power of killing them, or at least seriously hurting them, at the touch of a piece of metal.

You can never get rid of guns, or murder, or violence. You can crack down on it, make guns harder to obtain, make them owner-secure, make them shot-tracking.

nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,608 posts
Regent

Sure, your ideas of peace and prosperity for all mankind. Except for one flaw. We're men. The most of us like power, and what bigger portrayal of power than a gun? When pointing it at someone, loaded and safety off, you hold the power of killing them, or at least seriously hurting them, at the touch of a piece of metal.


Well that's true, to a certain extent laws in place do curtail such ''ower''. But stricter criteria is definitely in order.
partydevil
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partydevil
5,168 posts
Bard

It is an amendment in the constitution, no one, NO ONE, can take it away.

"ow holy constitution, your old and outdated. but we will love you whit all our might, so nothing will be updated."

They are impossible to get rid of. "Let's make guns illegal" is a stupid idea because voila, criminals are the only ones owning guns.

and so they are easyer to find and track.
finding the criminals befor they can use it.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
7,112 posts
Grand Duke

Just out of curiosity, where do "criminals" get their guns from when private persons cannot obtain guns? Anyone knows? Because most criminals are not part of some kind of mafia that buys guns from Russia or whatever, I'm sure most of them takes profit, directly or indirectly (contact persons) of the right to buy guns as a civilian.

If they don't restrict the sale of guns in general, they should at least restrict owner specific stuff, like restricting the legal amount of guns one can possess to one or few, except unloaded collectioners pieces (not that I approve of collectioning guns, but it would make it easier to pass).

Masterforger
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Masterforger
1,829 posts
Shepherd

Just out of curiosity, where do "criminals" get their guns from when private persons cannot obtain guns? Anyone knows? Because most criminals are not part of some kind of mafia that buys guns from Russia or whatever, I'm sure most of them takes profit, directly or indirectly (contact persons) of the right to buy guns as a civilian.

If they don't restrict the sale of guns in general, they should at least restrict owner specific stuff, like restricting the legal amount of guns one can possess to one or few, except unloaded collectioners pieces (not that I approve of collectioning guns, but it would make it easier to pass)

A lot of the rebuttals against guns answered:
http://www.memecreator.org/static/images/memes/860317.jpg

As for the asking of criminal guns, the black market, which can get everything from S&W 500s to tiger skins.

And the new gun laws, most countries possess things like that. Except the US.
Masterforger
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Masterforger
1,829 posts
Shepherd

and so they are easyer to find and track.
finding the criminals befor they can use it.

While I wait a few years for an edit button, I'll elaborate a bit:
I don't think illegal guns will make criminals easier to track. Angry people, yes, but not better finding for the police.
"ow holy constitution, your old and outdated. but we will love you whit all our might, so nothing will be updated."

People like old laws. Then again, people like illogical things, gun ownership and old laws among them.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
7,112 posts
Grand Duke

Where do guns on the black market come from, who has access to it, how hard is it to obtain illegal guns?

I guess those are some questions not easily answered, but I'm tired of hearing "but criminals will then be the only ones with guns". I wanna know why exactly people think so and if it's justified.

Masterforger
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Masterforger
1,829 posts
Shepherd

Where do guns on the black market come from, who has access to it, how hard is it to obtain illegal guns?

I suggest Googling it, we're not international police.

Another reason for a want of guns is your avatar. Hunting is a popular sport, and it is usually done with guns.

I guess those are some questions not easily answered, but I'm tired of hearing "but criminals will then be the only ones with guns". I wanna know why exactly people think so and if it's justified.

Depends who the guns are illegal for. The world? Civilians? Civilians and police?
partydevil
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partydevil
5,168 posts
Bard

I don't think illegal guns will make criminals easier to track.

as police you are going to look for a gun on the black market (or simply i-net these days) then you are going to buy that gun.
at that point you can arrest him. BUT. you keep the evidence for later. and your going to follow this dealers activity by following his computer and phones.
that way you automatically get people that want to buy a gun from this dealer that you can arrest for A. having a gun. B. whatever illegal stuff you can find about him.

if they had nothing els illegal why would he need a gun?

Where do guns on the black market come from, who has access to it,

it all drops down to those "gangs" or individuals that drive to russia and get them from there. in east europe there are allot of illegal weapon dealers that have guns from the communist period. + whit the corruption in those countries it wouldn't surprise me that some government officials sell it aswell.

Hunting is a popular sport, and it is usually done with guns.

hunting whit a (semi-)automatic assault rifle. what is the sport in that?
wontgetmycatnip
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wontgetmycatnip
95 posts
Shepherd

I guess those are some questions not easily answered, but I'm tired of hearing "but criminals will then be the only ones with guns". I wanna know why exactly people think so and if it's justified.

Mexico has fairly strict gun laws (160-163). Civilians can't legally own most firearms. This does nothing to stop cartels or other people who purchase illegal firearms (indeed there is a thriving market for unlicensed arms) but stops law abiding citizens from getting firearms that would be able to reasonably stop an assailant.
wolf1991
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wolf1991
3,449 posts
Blacksmith

UNALIENABLE RIGHT THAT ALL PEOPLE POSSES.


This. I wish to address this, and probably only this, we'll see.

I'm a Canadian, so my experience with guns is nonexistent, and Canadian culture is in many ways a reverse of American culture, point being, we're not gun fans for the most part.

Canada possesses a gun registry, however, the legisaltion enforcing this is laughable, but it does restrict the use of purchasable weapons by civilians.

But, back to what I wish to discuss. What makes something a "right"? Any country that declares a set of "rights" is in fact declaring a set of privledges which the government will allow its citizens to keep so long as the government decides to uphold them. These things can, and do, change. In 1982 the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms was created (we previously operated under British laws). This is the equivilant of your American constitution. The difference? The Canadian Charter has been revised a great many more times than the U.S Constitution.

Why is this important?

This is important to realize because it reveals that American society is too far hung up on a myth that they have idealized. Fact: The founding fathers were slave owners. The constitution was not written with everyone in mind, merely the white, and perhaps the wealthy, It is high time that Americans begin to focus on many of their outdated laws, especially the "right" to bear arms.

Mexico has fairly strict gun laws


Actually, I'll talk about this as well.

Mexico is actually an outlier in terms of strict gun control = increased violence. Also, simply because laws exist does not mean they are entirely enforced. Mexico is plagued with political troubles.

Japan also possesses strict gun laws, and their rate of gun violence is one of the lowest in the world.
partydevil
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partydevil
5,168 posts
Bard

mexico is a story on it's own. the unrecognized civil war over the drugs makes it much more dangerous as the usa. that mexico has atleast 3 times the homicide rate of any other country is due to this.
comparing whit a civil war gets you nowhere.

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