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Mickeyryn
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Mickeyryn
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The Illuminati: are they real? Is our world so corrupt? Is the NewWorldOrder real? Are the Vanderbuilts and the Sinclairs and all the old families plotting to take over the world? Were the shootings this past week staged??? Are we all doomed?

Personally I say...yes. But not to the biggest extent. I believe there are the Illuminati and the are plotting to take over the world.

What do you guys think???

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WHDH
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WHDH
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Much can be found in "Angels and Demons" written by Dan Brown!

Thnx for advice I will read it ;-)

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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@WHDH

The Order of Illuminati was founded in Bavaria in 1776, so you could say they did exist. But they had nothing in common with modern conspiracies.

To put things into context, you need to be aware that in the past, especially during the Age of Enlightenment, smaller private societies that met regularly to discuss particular topics were not uncommon. As such, the Order of Illuminati was just one group of like-minded freethinkers among others. From what I could read it was based loosely on the structure of the freemasons, but was a distinct, independent group. Their symbol was the Owl of Minerva/Athena, a symbol of knowledge and wisdom as befits a group of freethinkers looking for enlightenment. They didn't make it long, though, because they were eventually outlawed and dissolved sometime around 1787 (the authorities didn't like freethinkers). There is no evidence that any member tried to reestablish the group.

Here is where modern conspirationists get it all wrong: they claim that modern-day Illuminati try to seize power and make a new world order and use the Eye of Providence as a symbol. Not only is this notion totally unrelated to the ideals of the historical Illuminati which were freethinkers, not greedy power-hungry manipulators; conspirationists also get the symbols all wrong. As I explained, the Illuminati used the Owl of Minerva. The Eye of Providence, a symbol of God, was first adopted as a part of the reverse side of the Great Seal of the United States in 1782, a whole six years after the founding of the Bavarian Illuminati in Germany. None of the committee members who proposed this symbol were known to be freemasons, by the way. Freemasons, contrary to secret groups, do not hide and still today form official groups. The eye of providence is still portrayed for example on many official buildings as it symbolises God.

So you see, the historical Illuminati were a bunch of people more worried about enlightenment of the society than about global control of powers. You are right in one point: there are still greedy and corrupt people in the world. But there have always been, and there always will be. Greed and corruption are part of humanity, it is in an on itself no more evidence for some evil secret group than misunderstood symbolism.

Much can be found in "Angels and Demons" written by Dan Brown!

You know this is a novel with a fictional storyline, right? He uses a mix of benign historical facts and modern conspiracies to create the world of his books.
WHDH
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WHDH
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@HahiHa actually you are right. If there is a secret society that we call Illuminati it shouldn't be called by that because of history from Bavaria in 18th century. But it is to late to change that in public so I will continue to use word Illuminati for that secret society because other names will never be acepted in public.

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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There cannot be such a secret society as you claim. The mere fact that you, and so many other people, claim knowledge about its existence defeats your argument.

In my opinion, this new world order thing is merely the personification, in people's minds, of greed and corruption. It is not an actual existing order, but a kind of imaginary scape-goat they use to make sense of certain issues. What bothers me is that as long as some people look for a group that is not there, they will be unable to do something significant about the actual problem of corruption.

WHDH
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WHDH
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Secret sociaty because there is no knowledge who is in it and there isn't any prof that they ecist. Of course not even 80 percent of the most powerfull people are in it. And maybe it shouldn't be clasified as secret society as group of people who protect each other interes.

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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If there is no evidence on the existence of a secret group, why believe in one? And why do you say "not even 80 percent" if there is no knowledge who is in it?

And maybe it shouldn't be clasified as secret society as group of people who protect each other interes.

You mean like lobbies?
WHDH
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WHDH
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You mean like lobbies?

Yes,something like thatbut incognito.

If there is no evidence on the existence of a secret group, why believe in one?

If you don't see graviti why do you belive in it?

And why do you say "not even 80 percent" if there is no knowledge who is in it?

Personal thoguht.

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Yes,something like thatbut incognito.

The idea that this NWO bosh stems from irrational fears of lobbies and such is actually very interesting; at least I had never thought of it that way. I am myself not very fond of the way lobbies of big industrial companies and the like can influence politicians, and there is no doubt there are discussions going on behind the scene. The best example for this are probably those darned trade agreements that are discussed away from the public between the US and Europe/other countries. Those agreements benefit the large industries to the detriment of the people.

However I disagree with the idea that there is any hidden global cooperation between lobbies and neither is there any evil intentions of seizing power over the world. The interests of lobbies are much more base level: economic power and petty ambitions of individuals. Besides, when I talked about those 'secret' trade agreement negotiations, how could I know about them if they are secret? Thanks to leaks and whistle blowers, people who disagree and want to make it public. This is why we know about many things, and this is conversely why there is no such thing as the Illuminati or the NWO: there is absolutely no information about such groups, because there are no such groups. If there were, we could expect to have at least some concrete information, but we have absolutely nothing.

If you don't see graviti why do you belive in it?

I suppose this analogy is saying that we only know about gravity indirectly by observing how objects are affected by it, and that you seem to know about secret groups by how they apparently affect the economy and politics. There is one problem, which is that this analogy is over-simplifying. The case of gravity is very simple: there is a force that makes objects attract each other, we observed and defined it and are able to calculate with it perfectly. The case of world politics and economy is infinitely more complex; there are so many factors that what you suppose are the signs of a secret organisation can very well be caused by other, trivial factors, like lobbies.

Personal thoguht.

I assumed so, I just think that making up numbers does not help any side of the discussion.
FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
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If you don't see graviti why do you belive in it?
Believing in gravitational force is not the same as believing in intelligent falling. Not every mundane state of affairs requires an irrationaly extreme explanation.
WHDH
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WHDH
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I assumed so, I just think that making up numbers does not help any side of the discussion.

Probably no so exclude that it doesn't matter.

So HahiHa you have made a realy good point and you are probably right so thanks for this conversaton even if it was just two of us ;-)

DaGoblin
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DaGoblin
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However I disagree with the idea that there is any hidden global cooperation between lobbies and neither is there any evil intentions of seizing power over the world. The interests of lobbies are much more base level: economic power and petty ambitions of individuals.

A group of very powerful people around the world protecting each other's interest from time to time. How can this not be true?

I like to believe a large portion of these "powerful" people have good intentions other then money and power so I think this phenomenon is overall positive.

(Btw Hahiha, why do you always write in purple?)

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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So HahiHa you have made a realy good point and you are probably right so thanks for this conversaton even if it was just two of us ;-)

Thank you too, it was interesting ^^

A group of very powerful people around the world protecting each other's interest from time to time. How can this not be true?

Why does it have to be true? Who, do you propose, are those 'very powerful people'?

(Btw Hahiha, why do you always write in purple?)

Purple is the default text colour for knights, like blue is for mods and green for admins.
DaGoblin
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DaGoblin
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Why does it have to be true? Who, do you propose, are those 'very powerful people'?

Because to a degree its inevitable. "really powerful people" is just a title you can give important people like large company/stock owners, bankers, corrupt politicians, maybe decent politicians too, high officers, etc. Obviously some of them know help each other and occasionally one probably needs some help from the other in the form of political influence, money, information, etc.
I believe this happens a lot but at what point do you call this phenomenon "Illuminati"? Or "a small group that controls the world"? You can say that in a way the wold is ruled by these elites. But that depends on how you define "rule".
akshobhya
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akshobhya
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So, are they really real?

FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
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So, are they really real?
About as much as Santa Claus.
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