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An Agnostic's Dilemma.

Posted Jan 22, '13 at 11:08am

Roger721

Roger721

614 posts

That's not enough. She'd want him to want God. Doing it solely for her defeats the purpose of the ritual: "oneness with God, bondage, faith, etc".

And it'd be a waste of the church's time.

Yep. As soon as you say "I was on the internet and..." you're screwed.

'-'

Agnosticism isn't a theory. You're only asserting "I don't know". Explain that you can't claim to know God when you really don't, because that would be dishonest.

Yeah, but she'd ask me why I decided to choose agnosticism.

In addition, you could say that, from her view, God gave us rationality so we could decide things for ourselves. He wants to be sought out by His followers on thier own accord. Your upbringing didn't really allow for that to happen.

Hmm... indeed.

You never had a chance to "find God" in the first place.

I actually believed in God before. I'm currently more prone to become an atheist than becoming Christian.

If you kept your views burried and went along with the ceremonies, churchgoing, etc., and you ever decide to reveal your true thoughts, you've essentially been putting on a show. Lying to her. Lying to God. Then she'd know that and be crushed. Betrayed. Then she'd wonder what else you've been lying about. "If you can't even be honest to God, how would I know you don't lie all the time, since you think you're getting away with it?" It's far better to explain yourself before you're in that position. Be honest and open before it's too late.

I understand, and you're right... all I need now is the guts. '-'

 

Posted Jan 22, '13 at 12:31pm

EmperorPalpatine

EmperorPalpatine

4,970 posts

'-'

Depending on how strict she is, she'd likely ban you from "destructive influences" until you're brought back. The I-net is often a scapegoat as a tool spawned of evil.

Yeah, but she'd ask me why I decided to choose agnosticism.

Point out that it's not a choice. You simply aren't certain of which god(s) is/are the true one(s), if any. And, if I remember right, didn't she change up her religion earlier? You're doing the same thing, but with a broader scope. Instead of "which denomination?", it's "which religion, if any?"
Oh, and she'll likely try to use Pascal's Wager against you, so be ready with an answer.

I actually believed in God before.

Of course, but was it because your parents said "this is God", took you to church, etc? Or because you did research on your own and came to that conclusion all by yourself?

 

Posted Jan 22, '13 at 7:45pm

nichodemus

nichodemus

11,841 posts

Knight

Point out that it's not a choice. You simply aren't certain of which god(s) is/are the true one(s), if any. And, if I remember right, didn't she change up her religion earlier? You're doing the same thing, but with a broader scope. Instead of "which denomination?", it's "which religion, if any?"
Oh, and she'll likely try to use Pascal's Wager against you, so be ready with an answer.

Agnosticism is an active choice. You made a choice not to believe in whatever god you were supposed to believe in, but to keep an open mind.

 

Posted Jan 22, '13 at 8:09pm

EmperorPalpatine

EmperorPalpatine

4,970 posts

Agnosticism is an active choice.

You don't choose to not know something, just as you don't choose to know something. You either know it or you don't.

 

Posted Jan 22, '13 at 8:17pm

nichodemus

nichodemus

11,841 posts

Knight

You don't choose to not know something, just as you don't choose to know something. You either know it or you don't.

He chose to forsake his previous religion, in favour of keeping an open mind, and rejecting the opinion of knowing something, or believing in a specific god. That is a choice.

 

Posted Jan 22, '13 at 8:25pm

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,666 posts

Knight

Agnosticism is an active choice. You made a choice not to believe in whatever god you were supposed to believe in, but to keep an open mind.

1. That's a form of atheism.
2. A person's choices can influence their beliefs but the belief itself may not be by choice.
3. Agnosticism, being the lack of knowledge can be a choice to not gain said knowledge. However when one doesn't know where to gain said knowledge or said knowledge isn't available, this too can also not be a choice.

Oh, and she'll likely try to use Pascal's Wager against you, so be ready with an answer.

Walk through time.
The argument here would likely go something like this, "Do you want to risk going to Hell if you're wrong?"
The implication is only providing two choices. Either her religion is right and you're risking Hell or her religion is wrong and you have nothing to worry about. But if you follow her religion then you also have nothing to worry about if her religion is right or wrong.

This is a false dichotomy which doesn't take into account the possibility of another religion being right and risking the punishment of that religion instead. You also have to face the possibility that even if she has the right religion her denomination of that religion might be wrong and another right. Again with this scenario there is the chance of risking Hell for not worshiping correctly. Further out from this, there is also the possibility that the correct option is one no one has come across yet. This makes the options nearly infinite.

I think it better to withhold a choice until hard evidence is presented instead of picking one out of countless religions in the hopes that you got it right.

Besides the numbers just going along with a religion "just in case" would still be lying in your heart. The question here you can pose is if that God would want false worship?

 

Posted Jan 23, '13 at 9:00pm

Roger721

Roger721

614 posts

Depending on how strict she is, she'd likely ban you from "destructive influences" until you're brought back. The I-net is often a scapegoat as a tool spawned of evil.

She'd do that.

Point out that it's not a choice. You simply aren't certain of which god(s) is/are the true one(s), if any. And, if I remember right, didn't she change up her religion earlier? You're doing the same thing, but with a broader scope. Instead of "which denomination?", it's "which religion, if any?"

Yeah.

Oh, and she'll likely try to use Pascal's Wager against you, so be ready with an answer.

Is there a way of effectingly avoid this thing?

Of course, but was it because your parents said "this is God", took you to church, etc? Or because you did research on your own and came to that conclusion all by yourself?

Touché! I... don't remember. By the time I had made my mind as a human being, I was a believer. I had never questioned about God's existence. So... probably the first one.

Agnosticism is an active choice. You made a choice not to believe in whatever god you were supposed to believe in, but to keep an open mind.

I guess that'd be it. I honestly don't know in what side of the religious side I'm in the most. I'd believe in science only if it could explain me more things than it currently seems to.

The argument here would likely go something like this, "Do you want to risk going to Hell if you're wrong?"
The implication is only providing two choices. Either her religion is right and you're risking Hell or her religion is wrong and you have nothing to worry about. But if you follow her religion then you also have nothing to worry about if her religion is right or wrong.

Perhaps it'd go that way;;;

Er... maybe.

This is a false dichotomy which doesn't take into account the possibility of another religion being right and risking the punishment of that religion instead. You also have to face the possibility that even if she has the right religion her denomination of that religion might be wrong and another right. Again with this scenario there is the chance of risking Hell for not worshiping correctly. Further out from this, there is also the possibility that the correct option is one no one has come across yet. This makes the options nearly infinite.

Uh... yeah, indeed.

I think it better to withhold a choice until hard evidence is presented instead of picking one out of countless religions in the hopes that you got it right.

I agree.

Besides the numbers just going along with a religion "just in case" would still be lying in your heart. The question here you can pose is if that God would want false worship?

It's a nice point there.
_____________________________

Anyways, call me a wuss, but I haven't approached her about the situation yet. What keeps me the most is the fact that she has been quite depressed lately, and has been sleeping her days away. So can't reach her in a steady situation, plus I'm afraid she'd be stressed by the situation.

 

Posted Jan 23, '13 at 9:19pm

nichodemus

nichodemus

11,841 posts

Knight

Anyways, call me a wuss, but I haven't approached her about the situation yet. What keeps me the most is the fact that she has been quite depressed lately, and has been sleeping her days away. So can't reach her in a steady situation, plus I'm afraid she'd be stressed by the situation.

Find a better time to do so then. It's not like pretending to believe for a while more will be much a big deal.

 

Posted Jan 23, '13 at 11:04pm

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,666 posts

Knight

By the time I had made my mind as a human being, I was a believer. I had never questioned about God's existence. So... probably the first one.

This is one of the insidious things about indoctrinating children at such a young age. It gets them before they can even question it or think for themselves.

Anyways, call me a wuss, but I haven't approached her about the situation yet. What keeps me the most is the fact that she has been quite depressed lately, and has been sleeping her days away. So can't reach her in a steady situation, plus I'm afraid she'd be stressed by the situation.

No I don't think this is being a wuss at all. This is likely going to be a touchy subject to deal with and it is a good idea to wait til she is doing good first.

I would suggest using the current time to educate yourself more about the religion. Take note during church, ask questions, go out on the net and do your own research, read the Bible cover to cover for your self.

 

Posted Jan 24, '13 at 2:31am

pHacon

pHacon

1,313 posts

Reading this makes me remember how fortunate I am that my parents never gave a toss about religion outside of how it affected them personally and left my brother and I to form our own opinions on all of this.  I'm not jealous of my position -- it's how everyone should be raised -- but I'm definitely not envious of yours.

My two coppers in, then.  No matter what you decide to do, always be considerate of your mum.  It may prolong the process, but what matters here is that you both understand what each other is going through and don't muck it up more than you can help.

Personally, I would prefer to be honest with her.  But if you tell her that you don't believe, make sure she knows that non-religious people are at least as moral and healthy as religious people, and if she, knowing your beliefs (or lack thereof), still wants you to get baptized so she can personally feel safe, go through with it.  Do it for her.  You'll almost never see me endorsing any kind of compromise since compromise is generally bollocks and people are always worse-off for it, this is one situation where it's really not that bad.

 
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