I'd believe in science only if it could explain me more things than it currently seems to.

what can't science explain to you that you would like to understand (believe)?
i'm prety sure science can give a explenation on everything that exists.

Wouldn't that be too harsh?

hey, theres nothing too harsh to protect who you really are. i think its much harsher when people try to change you or make you one of them.

I'd like to be able to read her mind... I mean, the baptism is a big deal, but I'm not sure how far she would go to get me baptized - i.e.: how extreme it is.

well thats the most important thing. whats the worst she could do? do you think she would go as far as to disown you? think of the most extreme things she can do and see if you can face them. if not then you will just have to fake it. but in that case you will eventually "come out" with it and the relationship will be much more explosive.

Imagine Sheldon and his mum. Get to that stage.

Lol, nicho, you're awesome :P

You never had a chance to "find God" in the first place.

I actually believed in God before. I'm currently more prone to become an atheist than becoming Christian.

Um..I remember I copied this down for something...but I can't remember what my comment was. I assure you it was important! Just pretend like I made an important comment here I suppose.

Anyway, as for the thread in general. Starting with myself, I'm also an agnostic. I have consistently gone back and forth between being atheist and theist on the agnostic spectrum, and I currently reside in a more zen area of "Who gives a crap?" and have found the best peace there. Struggling to form an opinion, find the knowledge, acknowledge existence, and provide faith are all tough acts. In fact, they're not something you should really be worrying about at the age I'm guessing you're at (like 13-15 I'm just surmising from your situation). You should be enjoying social life to it's fullest extent, having fun, and not worrying too much.

Of course, I know that's my silly idealistic optimism shining through, but it's called idealism for a reason. Further on, I was in a relationship with someone when I was 17 who was Catholic. Not too religious, but enough that the argument/debate came up several times. After about 8 months of that argument reoccuring, I knew that was it. I wasn't going to do a permanent conversion; I was only willing to go to church with her and show that I was understanding of faith and commitment. However, she was more adamant than I felt necessary about having me believe in something. I simply stated it was much healthier to not fret over it if I wasn't absolutely positive, and I wasn't

Getting to the point I'm making, it's not healthy for either of you, you or your mom, to be going through this. You because your growth isn't over, physically, which will be diminished by the stress and its physical tolls, or mentally, which will be warped also by stress, but through the mental anguish present. Your mom because of her previously stated condition of depression, as well as, for lack of a better term, heartache at her son going against her structure.

Of course, the effects this situation would have would only be at a serious danger level after a significant amount of time, but trauma is trauma, and it should be stopped as soon as possible.

To get to my advice, I would say this: do what you want. You are your own person, and no one else can make you do anything if you don't want to. (Aside from if your mom can overpower you and literally drags you to the church) Your mom may not like it at first, but eventually, will see that you're maturing. You're starting to make your own decisions, and despite being underaged as you've said, you're becoming a man. She should respect you for that. I say should since I don't know your mom, but mothers should for the most part all feel this way about it. Also tell her that, like Devoidless said earlier, the case of giving rides and such is not comparable to a commitment like getting baptized.

Also, like I have also read throughout this thread, making a commitment when not committed is a horrible farce. If you're not in it completely, you shouldn't be at all. You need time to think about it.

Like I previously stated, you're in a stage where growth is necessary. You need to think for yourself and you need to show your mom that you can.

I also think you should find the time as soon as possible to tell her this. I know you said she's been sleeping a lot, so whenever she's awake, that should be the time. This is hard on her, too, and whether or not she likes your answer, she wants it to end soon as well.

If she questions your newly expressed agnosticism, then give her your reasoning. Maybe even tell why OH MY GOD I remembered why I quoted that chunk earlier.

You never had a chance to "find God" in the first place.

I actually believed in God before. I'm currently more prone to become an atheist than becoming Christian.

Tell her why you changed your mind about religion in the first place. Tell her that your faith dwindled as the prayers you made for your family went unanswered, and that got you to thinking. Explain yourself the best you can, and if she still doesn't understand, then maybe she never will. I know that sounds bad, but it may just be something that never gets worked out, but if you and your mom still love each other, then it will. Maternal love is a powerful thing, not to be reckoned with.

I hope that helps, and good luck with the situation. And again, try not to delay the talk anymore than you can.

I'd believe in science only if it could explain me more things than it currently seems to.

There is also a good chance science does already have the answers and you're just not aware of it.

Also belief really isn't part of science. Science isn't a belief based system. You either accept something based on the evidence presented or not.

Tell her that your faith dwindled as the prayers you made for your family went unanswered

That'll be met with 2 Timothy 3:1-9; that these are the last days: the critical moments to keep faithful and not give up on the promise of the Lord, or something like that.

That'll be met with 2 Timothy 3:1-9; that these are the last days: the critical moments to keep faithful and not give up on the promise of the Lord, or something like that.

Depends if his mom is an avid Bible memorizer, but I suppose you're right. Still, faith isn't something you can force.

Gee. Could a mod delete the last post? Thanks.

Mis-pressed the quote thingy.

This is one of the insidious things about indoctrinating children at such a young age. It gets them before they can even question it or think for themselves.

Exactly.

Find a better time to do so then. It's not like pretending to believe for a while more will be much a big deal.

No I don't think this is being a wuss at all. This is likely going to be a touchy subject to deal with and it is a good idea to wait til she is doing good first.

Yeah it will. And, once she's depressive, she's skipping church herself.

I would suggest using the current time to educate yourself more about the religion. Take note during church, ask quest
ions, go out on the net and do your own research, read the Bible cover to cover for your self.

I don't think it would change my opinions about it, yet a little studying is never too much, right?

Hey pH.

Reading this makes me remember how fortunate I am that my parents never gave a toss about religion outside of how it affected them personally and left my brother and I to form our own opinions on all of this.  I'm not jealous of my position -- it's how everyone should be raised -- but I'm definitely not envious of yours.

Lucky guy. It'd be all easier.

No matter what you decide to do, always be considerate of your mum.  It may prolong the process, but what matters here is that you both understand what each other is going through and don't muck it up more than you can help.

I see... I can't actually measure what would happen - the magnitude of the results - if every piece of this discussion would go wrong. So... it's risky to charge alone.

Personally, I would prefer to be honest with her.  But if you tell her that you don't believe, make sure she knows that non-religious people are at least as moral and healthy as religious people, and if she, knowing your beliefs (or lack thereof), still wants you to get baptized so she can personally feel safe, go through with it.  Do it for her.  You'll almost never see me endorsing any kind of compromise since compromise is generally bollocks and people are always worse-off for it, this is one situation where it's really not that bad

I dunno... I can't measure the results of that. I guess no one can. She could either use the baptism as a conversion tool or just as a seal of "I was there".

Hello Voidy - er... Devoidless; where have I seen you been called like that?

There is no way in any shape or form that a mother giving rides to her children or allowing trips/parties leads to her children owing her, for lack of a better word, to become part of a religion. That's sophistry.
To make it even better, not even just go to a few meetings (or whatever you may call it) yet get baptized! I am lacking the proper words to convey how strongly I feel about this (Rather, I lack the words allowed in our Community). It's not a little thing she is asking for.
It's akin to, oh say, receiving help with your office work for a while from a good friend of yours. They tell you not to worry about because they are doing it because they are your friend. Then suddenly they expect all those hours spent to be reimbursed by having you marry their youngest son/daughter.

Exactly! I totally agree! I... was actually kind of pissed at her for her pointing out that. She first asked if we would like to get converted, then said "oh, you should get converted due to bad things in the past" and for "godly protection" . And then she aims down to my knees and say "I should do it for her, because she was asking" and that I must think about every stuff she does for me. Er... flunk me, right?

hey, theres nothing too harsh to protect who you really are. i think its much harsher when people try to change you or make you one of them.

Well, stirring up fights with family members is rather harsh. Specially when this family member is your closest one, the one it's strongly related to you and has depressive tendencies.

well thats the most important thing. whats the worst she could do? do you think she would go as far as to disown you? think of the most extreme things she can do and see if you can face them. if not then you will just have to fake it. but in that case you will eventually "come out" with it and the relationship will be much more explosive.

Probably.

Hello Dragonball.

Anyway, as for the thread in general. Starting with myself, I'm also an agnostic. I have consistently gone back and forth between being atheist and theist on the agnostic spectrum, and I currently reside in a more zen area of "Who gives a crap?" and have found the best peace there. Struggling to form an opinion, find the knowledge, acknowledge existence, and provide faith are all tough acts. In fact, they're not something you should really be worrying about at the age I'm guessing you're at (like 13-15 I'm just surmising from your situation). You should be enjoying social life to it's fullest extent, having fun, and not worrying too much.

I like your style. And I think it'd be great to. But as my mom is trying - or at least was - to make religion a big part of her life. And even though I have no practical need to form an opinion, I'm starting to. Well... at least I'm forming small pieces of opinions and I'd like to avoid changing it.

Getting to the point I'm making, it's not healthy for either of you, you or your mom, to be going through this. You because your growth isn't over, physically, which will be diminished by the stress and its physical tolls, or mentally, which will be warped also by stress, but through the mental anguish present. Your mom because of her previously stated condition of depression, as well as, for lack of a better term, heartache at her son going against her structure.

Of course, the effects this situation would have would only be at a serious danger level after a significant amount of time, but trauma is trauma, and it should be stopped as soon as possible.

Oooohhhhh... nice. I agree. But I can't see how to tell her about it. I mean, would she listen to me? Would I manage to shove this under the carpet for a few... years?

To get to my advice, I would say this: do what you want. You are your own person, and no one else can make you do anything if you don't want to. (Aside from if your mom can overpower you and literally drags you to the church) Your mom may not like it at first, but eventually, will see that you're maturing. You're starting to make your own decisions, and despite being underaged as you've said, you're becoming a man. She should respect you for that. I say should since I don't know your mom, but mothers should for the most part all feel this way about it. Also tell her that, like Devoidless said earlier, the case of giving rides and such is not comparable to a commitment like getting baptized.

Well, nice point! I think she could see it that way. But it would be stressing at first. So... risky.

Also, like I have also read throughout this thread, making a commitment when not committed is a horrible farce. If you're not in it completely, you shouldn't be at all. You need time to think about it.

I hear you. If it's that much of big deal of the priests, it would be one big farce.

Like I previously stated, you're in a stage where growth is necessary. You need to think for yourself and you need to show your mom that you can.

I also think you should find the time as soon as possible to tell her this. I know you said she's been sleeping a lot, so whenever she's awake, that should be the time. This is hard on her, too, and whether or not she likes your answer, she wants it to end soon as well.

I hope. But I'm not even sure she remember the existance of this issue. During a depressive crisis, she wastes the world around her for the sake of sleeping. For real. In a moment she was even looking for the phone to call my dad - they are separated - to make me and my brother spend summer break there. Problem is, I hate my stepmother - she's evil - and my father works his *** off, so me and my brother would be sent for a psychological torture camp.

Tell her why you changed your mind about religion in the first place. Tell her that your faith dwindled as the prayers you made for your family went unanswered, and that got you to thinking. Explain yourself the best you can, and if she still doesn't understand, then maybe she never will. I know that sounds bad, but it may just be something that never gets worked out, but if you and your mom still love each other, then it will. Maternal love is a powerful thing, not to be reckoned with.

The truth saves it all, eh?

I hope that helps, and good luck with the situation. And again, try not to delay the talk anymore than you can.

Thanks so far.

~image~

There is also a good chance science does already have the answers and you're just not aware of it.

Also belief really isn't part of science. Science isn't a belief based system. You either accept something based on the evidence presented or not.

Exactly! But, as of now, I haven't got enough research, probably.

That's exactly the reason why this is in my about:

I don't follow religions, but I believe there's something that has been influencing the fate of the world. I don't see how the Earth, in it's complex form, could be explained totally by Science only. The colour, the smell, the feelings... But I dunno... maybe all I need is more research.

That'll be met with 2 Timothy 3:1-9; that these are the last days: the critical moments to keep faithful and not give up on the promise of the Lord, or something like that.

She might come up with this... not mentioning the current stuff, but saying it like that.

Still, faith isn't something you can force.

No way.
___________________

She hasn't slept the day away today. I don't know if that is an improvement or if you could blame on the horrible fire we got there - she went to a gymnasium to observe the cops working.

And, once she's depressive, she's skipping church herself.

Not necessarily. She might go more, seeking help from the Lord.

I don't think it would change my opinions about it, yet a little studying is never too much, right?

If anything, it'll reinforce them. For example, today, I found 2 Samuel 12:15, in which God causes an innocent baby to die. This replaces Judges 11:30-39 as my least favorite God-related death in the bible.

But I can't see how to tell her about it.

Understand yourself. Know as much about your current position as you can, so you can readily explain yourself and your reasoning. Then find a time when she's calm and able to talk/listen. If you can't find a time, make a time. Say "I need to tell you something. It's important." Sit in a comfortable area without distractors (tv, phone, etc). Just do it before it's too late.

I mean, would she listen to me?

Whether she listens or not, she should respect you for your honesty and openness.

Would I manage to shove this under the carpet for a few... years?

It would be more than a few. And then she could find out that it was all a lie. And even if she didn't find out, you'd still be guilty of it.

Well, stirring up fights with family members is rather harsh. Specially when this family member is your closest one, the one it's strongly related to you and has depressive tendencies.

again, you are protecting who you are. if your family cant accept you for who you are then i would say they arent worthy of being your family. might sound cold but if there is one thing i hate its when people who are close to you use that bond to control you. in the end, those who make you choose are those who arent worth being chosen.

Probably.

to what? disowning you? if she is that extreme and cares more about control and religion then her own son then id suggest you play her game and play your act until your physically safe. i know its difficult to have such family problems but if you give up you will eventually face horibble personal pain.

my father expected me to join the army. not only that he expected me to join a fighting unit. i am underweight, he hates that (even though he is underweight too). he is embarassed with my asthma and simply believes his own lie that it does not exist. he convinced himself that im some kind of ****** cop who wants to be a medic or cop instead of joining the army when i told him i wont join. and when i told him i wont be one of those he was shocked.

would you suggest me that i would join the army/be a cop/medic when i hate weapons, and cant stand the sight of blood? you HAVE to be who you are (unless its dangerous) and not give up to anyone who thinks has the right to determine who you are.