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KnightDeclan
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KnightDeclan
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I don't quite remember who doubted miracles, but how do you explain these? Scientists have always chosen to stay away from these. Kinda funny how these people were known as holy people when alive.

http://www.protestanterrors.com/incorruptibles.htm

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nichodemus
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There are numerous cases of Non-Christian bodies coming into a state of ''incorruptibility''. All of such cases can be explained scientifically or are far too long past to be proved physically (Convenient eh?).

The fact that incorruptibility occurs in people other than Christian saints makes the miracle explanation considerably less likely. These examples range from the head of King Charles I, to Otzi the Iceman, to cases of Austrian peasants being dug up in a vampire scare, only to be found that they appeared ruddy in complexion.

One example is called adipocere. In a damp, alkaline environment, fatty tissue in a body can undergo a chemical reaction that turns it into a hard, waxy, soaplike substance (which is why adipocere is often called 'grave wax'. The end result is a cadaver which looks 'like something youâd find in a wax museum'. Adipocere inhibits decomposition, preserves the shape of the body like a cast, and can last for centuries. It is very likely the explanation for many incorruptible corpses.

Another candidate is mummification. If left in a very cold, salty or dry environment, a body can become desiccated and resistant to decay. (Decay typically requires at least some moisture â" this is why honey does not rot or ferment, because its low moisture content makes it impossible for bacteria to grow in it.) Natural mummies like Otzi the Iceman are well-known. Though these bodies may not be completely lifelike, they do remain intact, and with a little pious imagination (and perhaps some judicious use of wax), itâs not hard to see how another claim of incorruptibility could be advanced.


Saint Bernadette Soubirous


A photo of her corpse can be seen on the cover of a book called The Incorruptibles, which claims the body has been 'reserved intact since 1879 without embalming or other artificial means.' Actually, the face and hands that look so real in the photo are made out of wax. The wax was added because the face was "emaciated" when the body was first exhumed


And one tell tale sign. Some of these alleged saintly incorruptibles have exuded a sweet odor when exhumed. The faithful take this as a sign of divine intervention; the knowledgeable take it as a sign of embalming fluids and ointments.

Most important, and seemingly never considered by apologists, is this: How common is it for a body to remain intact? Many religious beliefs arise from the fallacy of counting the hits and forgetting the misses. Since most bodies are not exhumed, this is especially apt. It may be that postmortem preservation is common, but we do not know because we usually never check. In the absence of detailed evidence, the few undecayed bodies we know of should not be proclaimed to be extraordinary, and if these incorrupt Catholic saints are just a few among a much larger category of examples, the claim that their preservation is due to Godâs special favor would swiftly collapse. For example, the bodies of many Popes have been exhumed (and one has even been put on trial), yet they all have been known to be horribly decayed.

More explanations debunking incorruptibility can be found here, and so are my sources.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Scientists have always chosen to stay away from these.


Probably because they are examples of good preservation Scientists have always chosen to stay away from these. or not, or just hoaxes as already pointed out. The points that would qualify it to be considered Incorruptible would not eliminate these possibilities nor would it suggest the result of a supernatural agent.
KnightDeclan
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KnightDeclan
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Exhumed, as you say, makes no difference. Even if these bodies were embalmed, they still wouldn't last so many years in perfect condition, aside from a few. King Charles I was Catholic btw. These aren't the only incorruptible, just a few. Also, if you're buried in ice, you'll be preserved, until ur taken out. These bodies are in churches and cathedrals, not Ice blocks. I have seen two in my short life, here in Massachusetts.

Kasic
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Kasic
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I have two questions.

Why would God preserve dead bodies?
Why are you taking preserved bodies as a sign of God's existence?

Also, the problem with miracles is this: a miracle is something which is impossible. However, the impossible isn't possible. When we investigate, we always find a reason/cause behind such "miracles" and the answer is never supernatural, because the world functions in a natural way. "Miracles" are simply things which we don't understand, or just had a low chance of happening, like someone surviving a large fall.

What you don't take into consideration is how many people die from falling 10+ stories. The one living is a statistical anomaly due to various factors, not divine intervention.

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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The Sokushinbutsu (certain Bhuddist monks) proceeded to self-mummification and we can explain it. Certainly astounding, but not miraculous.

Modern bodies start to be so full of residues of medis and other ugly stuff that they won't rot and won't get eaten by maggots. This was the case at an old graveyard where they planned a street going through (as normally the bodies should have been decayed already). As they dug the way with machines, instead of digging through mere soil they excavated the halfway preserved mummies of the deceased.

What is a miracle to some is not to others. A "miracle" is something perceived by someone as miraculous; all it shows is that those people cannot explain it rationally. It does not mean that there is no rational explanation at all.

UnleashedUponMankind
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UnleashedUponMankind
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And again... if there is something that:

- a.) cant be explained (yet) to 100% by science
or:
- b.) can be explained by science (but some people wont accept that, cuz they have their own (sometimes... lets say "special&quot philosophy)

then you will find always some people which found their own "explanations"... and they could be called miracles/wonders/magic/whatever...
and then they claim these, ok, lets say miracles for their very own philosophy (not to mention that only their philosophy and therefor explanation is the right one...) and this philosophy can be based on religion, race, alien activities, etc... and surely they will always find some "brothers in spirit"

To make it short: if you or your "brothers in spirit" cant explain something or wont accept the explanation its still not a miracle...

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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It would seem these incorruptibles are are at best natural mummies through an unknown process. And the only reason it is as an unknown is because of poor examination or distorting of the facts. Very much like what we have seen happen with claims of crying statues as miracles.

Off a top ten list of Incorruptibles Saint Zita, 1272. Patron saint of helping you find your lost car keys. (That's a bit of a joke, it's just lost keys in general.)
http://i0.wp.com/listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/lucca.san-frediano17.jpg

nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Exhumed, as you say, makes no difference. Even if these bodies were embalmed, they still wouldn't last so many years in perfect condition, aside from a few.


And it so happens that only a few saints have been preserved. Stop at any major church and you'll find holy relics. Why didn't they get preserved? Why are they instead, fetid pieces of necrotic flesh and bone?

King Charles I was Catholic btw. These aren't the only incorruptible, just a few. Also, if you're buried in ice, you'll be preserved, until ur taken out. These bodies are in churches and cathedrals, not Ice blocks. I have seen two in my short life, here in Massachusetts.


I have already shown that this is patently false. Everything decays when they're not preserved properly. Saint Bernadette requires a touch-up with wax every once in a while. Clearly not incorruptible.
mbbs112
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mbbs112
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Shepherd

Getting preserved isnt called a miracle Knight

NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
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What is a miracle?

Is it a miracle when something literally impossible happens, such as something that defies the laws of nature?

or

Is it a miracle when something improbable happens, such as something that's technically possible - just highly unlikely?

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Blacksmith

See if we can get a bi more life in this.

Getting preserved isnt called a miracle Knight


What would you regard as a bonafide miracle?
Bladerunner679
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Bladerunner679
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What would you regard as a bonafide miracle?


Is it a miracle when something literally impossible happens, such as something that defies the laws of nature?


so far, the most immediate thing I can think of is me going to a graveyard, and watch as a truly dead guy comes out of the ground with no decay on him whatsoever (not a zombie, but a sentient human that I can actually talk to).

another one (maybe just as unlikely) is a spider monkey coming out of my mouth at this very moment.

so far, the only people who see miracles anymore is 1. people who have no scientific knowledge on the subject matter. 2. fundamentalist religious people. so that basically means only idiotic fundamentalists (a good chunk).

-Blade
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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What is a miracle?

Is it a miracle when something literally impossible happens, such as something that defies the laws of nature?

or

Is it a miracle when something improbable happens, such as something that's technically possible - just highly unlikely?


If it's the latter there really is no reason to attribute it to a supernatural agent.

another one (maybe just as unlikely) is a spider monkey coming out of my mouth at this very moment.


I don't think that's where monkeys come out of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPruGs4IyK4
Moegreche
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Moegreche
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Is it a miracle when something literally impossible happens, such as something that defies the laws of nature?

or

Is it a miracle when something improbable happens, such as something that's technically possible - just highly unlikely?


This is a good point, and when we combine it with:

so far, the most immediate thing I can think of is me going to a graveyard, and watch as a truly dead guy comes out of the ground with no decay on him whatsoever (not a zombie, but a sentient human that I can actually talk to).

another one (maybe just as unlikely) is a spider monkey coming out of my mouth at this very moment.


I start to wonder why there is this intuition that miracles are always 'good' things. I'm not sure if this is just an intuition that I have and isn't shared by many people.
Of course, thinking back to the incorruptible examples it's hard to see whether a body being preserved is good or bad. Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not even sure what I mean by 'good' and 'bad'. It doesn't come down to morality - so maybe miracles are supposed to be something beneficial to the observers or to mankind? But that doesn't seem to work either.

There's a fairly standard of a miracle in the philosophy of religion. It required divine intervention into the state of affairs - that's pretty much it. It doesn't require a complete circumvention of the laws of nature (although it could). The outcome could be completely consistent with natural laws and thus could be explained within our current understanding.

Of course, this leaves open the question of how we might go about identifying a genuine miracle. Is there a better definition out there that might be of service here?
mbbs112
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mbbs112
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Shepherd

a miracle is something that is impossible and its always good

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