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lukmanismail
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lukmanismail
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Islam to me is the true religion. I was born as a Muslim and I now live as Muslims. I believe that Allah, our God is true and His Messenger, Muhammad ( peace be upon him) is Allah's Massenger. Why I said this?[ http://www.dar-us-salam.com/TheNobleQuran/ ] this link is an example of the holy Quran, translated. I know Islam is true and the reason I made this forum is to discuss it, not because I order you to become a Muslim, but to just tell what we do. It is up to you if you want to read this or not, to believe this or not. If you have any problems or questions about the thread feel free to ask me. If you do not want this thread, ask the moderator to lock this thread. Thank you for reading.

Wallahua'lam

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EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
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This could be discussed here in T&A instead.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Having a more focused thread on the matter might be good.

Islam to me is the true religion. I was born as a Muslim and I now live as Muslims.


Do you think your views would be different if your family were Christian or Jewish, etc.?

I know Islam is true


Based on what evidence? We can't claim knowledge based on faith (belief without proof) as many religions including your own focus on. If you are basing this certainty on faith then you are not operating on knowledge but simple belief. A belief likely based on intuitive feelings and indoctrination rather than any sort of critical analysis and facts.

I made this forum is to discuss it, not because I order you to become a Muslim, but to just tell what we do. It is up to you if you want to read this or not, to believe this or not.


I appreciate that and will bookmark your link for later reading.
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
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Having a more focused thread on the matter might be good.

Isn't that what happened with all the other ones? It generally starts off nice and focused as a discussion/sharing of the specifics within the context of the religion itself (which is fine), but then it gets to the big-picture questions that get met with arguments from ignorance and circular reasoning, at which point it usually gets locked and redirected because it's no longer on the OP topic of "what you believe" but "why you believe". The reason I wanted it redirected is because he included a claim of knowledge, which sparks those big-picture questions.
infinight888
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infinight888
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Islam believes in Djinn, which aren't dissimilar to Christian and Judaic demons. Islam also believes that Djinn are capable of interacting with the world in very noticable ways and that human can gain some level of control over them. Is all of this correct, so far?

lukmanismail
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lukmanismail
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Infinight888,

In Islam, we believe that djinn has two categories. The good and the bad. The good djinn spend their time praying to Allah, while the bad tell humans to break Allah's rule. To make things short, the good jin is the angel while the bad jin is the devil. So for your question about jin interaction, this is true, because the bad people who kill and do all bad stuff was influenced by setan (devil).

infinight888
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infinight888
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Wait, weren't angels something else entirely in Islam? Djinn being made from fire with free will and angels being made from light without free will? And on the free will note, if humans have free will, then why do you assume that every single murder commited required Djinn influence? I've seen similar claims from Chirstians, regarding demons, and it seems to me like humans are perfectly capable of killing eachother on their own. And since believers are generally immune to these creatures, it would actually imply that Muslims/Christians (depending on your faith), don't murder people. Something which is just factualy incorrect.

All of this was just an aside though. The point I was leading up to is this: If Islamists are capable of communicating, summoning or otherwise controlling Djinn in this modern era, then they should be capable of presenting clear evidence of the existence of these Djinn. If there are, in fact, good Djinn, then these being should have a desire to prove their existence, to convert humans to Islam. And there is currently a million dollar reward to anyone who can present clear evidence of anything supernatural. So my next question would be, why is their no evidence that these Djinn exist, when proving them sounds relatively easy?

MacII
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MacII
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[quoteinfinight888]If Islamists are capable of [/quote]

You'll realize what is commonly called "Islamist" doesn't equal "adherent to Islam"?

As for this thread, I find it a weird starter on a first post, but, maybe that's just me.

infinight888
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infinight888
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You'll realize what is commonly called "Islamist" doesn't equal "adherent to Islam"?


Huh, just googled it... Well that's confusing...
lukmanismail
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lukmanismail
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Infinight888,

Who says that there are no evidence of djinn? Ghost are actually djinn, and lots of people had claimed that they had seen ghosts.

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Who says that there are no evidence of djinn? Ghost are actually djinn, and lots of people had claimed that they had seen ghosts.

Lots of people have claimed to see the ghosts of their deceased family members, not random potentially djinn-like creatures.

There is also a total lack of actual evidence of djinns, ghosts or whatever you want to call them. Many occurences can be explained rationally, those who can't cannot be proven to be actually supernatural events. Calling them true djinn sightings is a pure act of belief, and has nothing to do with evidence.

What infinight says is interesting, though; are muslims really supposed to be able to summon djinns? Like a medium supposedly does with ghosts, or as actual physical presence?
infinight888
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infinight888
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What infinight says is interesting, though; are muslims really supposed to be able to summon djinns?


I believe it's technically considered a sin, but I would hope that it would be given a pass if done in service of Allah. My understanding is that It's more that they believe in the capability to summon and control djinn, but don't practice it themselves. Even if it is a sin, I think at least one Muslim would be willing to sacrifice their soul to save many others if they did in fact, have this capability.

I'm actually curious about the form they're summoned in too, though.
thebluerabbit
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thebluerabbit
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I think at least one Muslim would be willing to sacrifice their soul to save many others if they did in fact, have this capability.


so... if he does that to save many others its still considered a sin and he goes to hell?
MacII
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MacII
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I think the djinn derive from pre-islamic religions and folk beliefs. It is, as far as I know, not at all the case that all Muslims would believe in them (or if they do, as something palpable), let alone be able to interact with or even summon them.

if we were to paraphrase Infinight's question and replace "Islamist" (sic, s/he has by now acknowledged apparently they misphrased) wih, say, X, you will see the premise is a faulty hypothesis, and so the answer is immaterial if not impossible (sorry):

If [X is] capable of communicating, summoning or otherwise controlling Djinn in this modern era, then they should be capable of presenting clear evidence of the existence of these Djinn. If there are, in fact, good Djinn, then these being should have a desire to prove their existence, to convert humans [...]. And there is currently a million dollar reward to anyone who can present clear evidence of anything supernatural. So my next question would be, why is their no evidence that these Djinn exist, when proving them sounds relatively easy?


Perhaps a decent read on these matters (or something of an introduction to them, with something of a different angle. I'm sure not all Muslims would find the book very agreeable!) would be (a younger) Idries Shah's Oriental Magic (1956). Remember to keep a grain or two of salt at the ready, and that Shah himself was not uncontroversial, for different reasons among different quarters.
danielo
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danielo
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As much as i like the islamic culture (no synicism), Islam is quite based on the prophet bringing rules which by miracle come "just in time" for his actions. He need to break a threaty? Suddenly there is a rule which say that a muslim can break a vow to a non-islamic person if will. He want to convert the jews? Jerusalem is suddenly holy. Didnt worked? Mecca in, Jerusalem out. And its like this many times.

Anyway, befor 1900 the Islamic world was the most tolerant at the world, when everyone (exept the pagans maybe) could live in harmony and be in almost every ranks (During the siege of Napoleon on Acre, the commander of Acre defences was jewish).

So, what do you think about other relogions lokmanismail? Im speicely curios about your thoughts on jewdism.

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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I believe it's technically considered a sin, but I would hope that it would be given a pass if done in service of Allah. My understanding is that It's more that they believe in the capability to summon and control djinn, but don't practice it themselves. Even if it is a sin, I think at least one Muslim would be willing to sacrifice their soul to save many others if they did in fact, have this capability.

You're right, I recall reading that muslims actually believe in magic (like summoning djinns) but ultimately condemn it. Of course this may need confirmation or refutation.
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