Forums → WEPR → The Israel and Palestine War

@09philj Abd again we go with the arrogance. Israel and tge palestunians are not small kids which need guidness. Israel is a well organized state. I dont underarand why you keep blaming us for being raducal. Does anyone who support Israel existence is radical?

Israel constitution say that Israel will respect all of its citizens, no matter religion, 'race' or gender. It also call for the neighbore states to live in peace with us. If you will ACTUALY READ our constitution rather then brliving it to be what you feel it is, you will see yhe duffrunces betwern Israel and Hamas. Hamas constitotion say that they will never accept Israel as a state, and claim that the jews control the entire world. They say they want to destroy the entire jewish peoples. Google it and see for yourself.

Abd again we go with the arrogance. Israel and tge palestunians are not small kids which need guidness.

That word disproportionate response.. You guys hear that from the medias, don't take their word for it. As someone who was there I can tell you the medias show you half truths and often blank lies too.

http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=bdKKISNqEmG&b=1313923&ct=7536409

Something more up to date:
http://www.jerusalemonline.com/news/world-news/the-israeli-connection/lecture-colonel-richard-kemp-stresses-israel-isnt-a-war-criminal-6993

Edit: The second video:

Thank you, Mr. President.

I am the former commander of the British forces in Afghanistan. I served with NATO and the United Nations; commanded troops in Northern Ireland, Bosnia and Macedonia; and participated in the Gulf War. I spent considerable time in Iraq since the 2003 invasion, and worked on international terrorism for the UK Government�s Joint Intelligence Committee.

Mr. President, based on my knowledge and experience, I can say this: During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defence Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.

Israel did so while facing an enemy that deliberately positioned its military capability behind the human shield of the civilian population.

Hamas, like Hizballah, are expert at driving the media agenda. Both will always have people ready to give interviews condemning Israeli forces for war crimes. They are adept at staging and distorting incidents.

The IDF faces a challenge that we British do not have to face to the same extent. It is the automatic, Pavlovian presumption by many in the international media, and international human rights groups, that the IDF are in the wrong, that they are abusing human rights.

The truth is that the IDF took extraordinary measures to give Gaza civilians notice of targeted areas, dropping over 2 million leaflets, and making over 100,000 phone calls. Many missions that could have taken out Hamas military capability were aborted to prevent civilian casualties. During the conflict, the IDF allowed huge amounts of humanitarian aid into Gaza. To deliver aid virtually into your enemy's hands is, to the military tactician, normally quite unthinkable. But the IDF took on those risks.

Despite all of this, of course innocent civilians were killed. War is chaos and full of mistakes. There have been mistakes by the British, American and other forces in Afghanistan and in Iraq, many of which can be put down to human error. But mistakes are not war crimes.

More than anything, the civilian casualties were a consequence of Hamas� way of fighting. Hamas deliberately tried to sacrifice their own civilians.

Mr. President, Israel had no choice apart from defending its people, to stop Hamas from attacking them with rockets.

And I say this again: the IDF did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.

Thank you, Mr. President.

That word disproportionate response..

I don't get what you mean. What would be a smart response in your eyes to the rockets?

Glad you agree about the proportions of the response though. Again, don't take my word for it. Ask any Israel who served how the army works in these situation he will give you the same answers.

The Israelis have access to a really efficiant anti-missile system, called the Iron Dome. They do not need to deploy that much force relative to the threat missiles pose.

First, you can say 'you' not 'they'

Its VERY expensive missiles. Its also not deployed everywhere and its not perfect. That's why people died from these rocket/missile attacks.

Now without mentioning the mortar fires that are impossible for Iron Dome to intercept, there's the attack tunnels. If you heard of these you would know there was no other option then to invade Gaza by land and destroy them all.

Military intervention only helps in the short term. In the long term, it just makes those who oppose Israel more popular.

Im guessing you didn't hear about the attack tunnels. Inside Gaza soldiers found dousens of attack tunnels leading to all sort of places including many Israeli villages. Captured militants say they planned a big attack on a holiday. Thousands of militants going through the tunnels all at once, killing everyone they find. I don't even want to imagine how that would work out.

Aside from that, with all respect to the Gazan opinion I don't think not responding would make them less hostile in the short term. Not when Hamas and Hamas's propaganda is at use. And letting them bomb us freely and give our lives on silver plates is out of the question for any rational society.

I'm not suggesting there is a long term solution (I don't think there is.). Personally, I think it's going to be either an endless war, or you'll all go out in one blaze of whatever you call the opposite of glory. But I can see the flaws in the current philosophy that make the endless war scenario more likely. (Of course, that would be better than your total destruction)

Hope that won't happen. We managed top pull off peace with Jordan, Egypt and USA took care of Iraq so all that's left is Lebanon, Syria and the Palestinians (Iran is a different story).
I'd like to think its achievable but there will always be radicals.

USA took care of Iraq

That's a serious accusation :\

Since USA invaded Iraq and Sadame was gone the Iraqi active war against Israel stopped. Before that Iraq joined the rest of the Arab armies in the big Invasions of Israel in the major wars and even shot missiles at us from all the way over Syria. Its anything but peaceful now but for us its one of the major hostile Arab armies gone.

@09philj The Chamberline tactics again? Sit back, enjoy a pint and let the all mess end by itself?

6 years ago Hamas was on the way to destruction. they were not armed as they are today, and not well trained like they are today. But you stopped us from finishing it back then. You cried "You are killing them!!!" and begged and cursed and threatend us to freeze things up, because its hurt your feelings to see dead peopels on the news. On the other hands, when Hamas shot mortars and rockets at Israel for 8{!!!!!!} years in a row sicne 2004, and Israel did nothing, You also said nothing.

But lets put it off for now, and examine your tactics. You suggest 2 options:
1) full occupation of Gaza. Today they are an autonomous state, governed by Hamas {Who execute Palestinians on a daily basis and steal the tax money and charity gathered by left wingers in europe and USA}. You say we need to send waves after waves of troops {without air support or artilary support} Like its a bloody WW1.

2} Fight Hamas in a open field like its freaking Waterloo 1812.

Hamas ahs no other option to fight us, rather then hiding among civilians. You cant denay that. Wher are they going to hide their rockets? Open fields? In the sea? Wher are they gonna fight Israeli soliders?! Face to face on the fields outside Gaza city?


About Iraq - whats going on in Iraq has nothing to do with USA. the opposite actualy. USA helped Iraq build a western democracy with elections and all. Not perfect yet, but better then Saddam days. USA didnt fought Iraq, They fought Saddam. Most of the troops were Iraq'is and Saudi's. Same in Afganistan. Its Afgan fighting Afgans, but one side is supported by USA and the UN {Germans, English, French and many other countries}.
Same in Syria. Peopels in USA and europe laughe at USA for supporting ISIS, But in fact the ysupport the democratic front. If the democratic front in Syria will win, Its will be a much better middle east then the other scenario in which Assad stay in position. But Assad is the minor evil rather then Al-Nosra and ISIS, and seem to be the force that can beat them.

Having considered it further, and given that you want the plan that carries the least risk of everyone dying, the current policy of "wait for the rockets, then invade Gaza for a bit, then debate peace for a bit" is Israel's best bet. It's not a good bet, but better than the "get blown to pieces in an all out war" option that all the plans I can think of with result in. This is my last word on the subject.