ForumsWEPRPoor people and Rich people.

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random_player_of_ag
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random_player_of_ag
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Nomad

I have seen in tv many shows ( news ) about poor people and rich people.
And i think to myself:"How come rich people get more rich and poor people get more poor?".
It is a situation a little bit strange.
I think that it should not be rich and poor people.
Everyone should be fine (relative to money).
People say that money does not bring health and other things.
It is true but it helps.
Tell me what you think about this.

  • 143 Replies
Flipski
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Flipski
623 posts
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Nature tends towards chaos and disorder. Thats what would happen. Life is so much easier with an ordered government. And I happen to enjoy new technology and innovation but without a market economy, no one would innovate and we would be back to life in the stone ages. Government is part of our progress and development as a species.

woody_7007
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woody_7007
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Peasant

Government is part of our progress and development as a species.


Indeed. To combat one determinist view (Marxism) with another, historical determinism, which states that the current form of capitalist, relatively liberal democratic society pevailent in the western world will eventualy lead to an end of conflicts and harmony of the human race.

(note i am not a determinist but that shows how these theories can be used for argument's sake but as they are just theories they are not solid enough to form the basis of an argument on their own)
chrishiot88
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chrishiot88
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Peasant

Yes but there could be some order in anarchy something like people teaming together to punish people that are wrong non violently. Because violence in anarchy could be the worst violence because you wouldn't be punished for it.

Know i think about it bit i'm greek and people that call themselves anarchist destroyed many shops in athens without the police doing anything but in another major greek city the shop owners teamed up against them and drove them away. Anarchistic justice?

Drace
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Drace
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Determinism is rather a scientific fact.

I'm not going to be posting anything more then a paragraph now.
Way too much work.

And I happen to enjoy new technology and innovation but without a market economy, no one would innovate and we would be back to life in the stone ages.


New technology has come before the free market system...What free market capitalism is gives you is useless products that are a waste of natural resources. As a species, we do create new technology to better ourselves. If a certain technology will offer a better life, it will have to come.

Dammit I did it again (
Drace
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Drace
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Nomad

Government is part of our progress and development as a species.


What does government have to do with anything? That just came out of no where. Free market system does not equal to a government.
Eshploded
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Eshploded
469 posts
Nomad

Note that I dislike Anarchism.

Yes but there could be some order in anarchy something like people teaming together to punish people that are wrong non violently. Because violence in anarchy could be the worst violence because you wouldn't be punished for it.
Know i think about it bit i'm greek and people that call themselves anarchist destroyed many shops in athens without the police doing anything but in another major greek city the shop owners teamed up against them and drove them away. Anarchistic justice?


Heh. The more we progress, the more people &quotrogress", the more we tend to dislike death and murder. Strangely, the deaths in masses increase from individual murder, to tribal murder, to world war murder, and finally to a single technological murder (large bombs). Why complicate it when we can go back to the simplicity of nature?
woody_7007
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woody_7007
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Determinism is rather a scientific fact.


In this context determinists belive there is a set course where everyone will end up eventually. Still only a theory, not a fact.

.What free market capitalism is gives you is useless products that are a waste of natural resources.


The free market allocates resources by reacting to the demand. Giving the people what they want and need. What more efficient way to create products is there than to let the people who buy them effectively decide what goes on the market.

New technology has come before the free market system..


In addition, in pure capitalism massive monopolies are created controlling entire markets. Even though this is not the case in reality, monopolies are a result of capitalism. One of the benefits of monopolies are increased economies of scale and as a result increased spending on Research and Development by these firms leading to more new and innovative technology.
Flipski
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Flipski
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The only innovation that occurred as a precursor to the concept of a free market, was innovation in hunting, food gathering, farming etc. Yes there was innovation, but it wasn't to the level of pointless things such as ipods, cell phones with gadgets that we have today. The only way things like that would develop is with a market where people can waste their money on things like those.

No matter what if you started over, everything would lead into an organized economy and government, its inevitable. Give me an example of how you would live with no government.

Drace
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Drace
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Nomad

In this context determinists belive there is a set course where everyone will end up eventually. Still only a theory, not a fact.


Everything is run by cause and effect. X --> Y. Thats a scientific fact.
Its not that something will happen, but that y can be determined by x. In other words, the material conditions determine the outcome of something.

The free market allocates resources by reacting to the demand.


Or creating the demand and a consumerist culture. And hell, I want 9999999999999999999 toys, make it for me!
Drace
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Drace
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Nomad

No matter what if you started over, everything would lead into an organized economy and government, its inevitable. Give me an example of how you would live with no government.


First give some supporting statements.
Drace
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Drace
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Nomad

No matter what if you started over, everything would lead into an organized economy and government, its inevitable. Give me an example of how you would live with no government.


First give some supporting statements. And communist economy is organized. Central planning is much more controlled then the free market, so I don't know where your going with this.
Eshploded
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Eshploded
469 posts
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In this context determinists belive there is a set course where everyone will end up eventually. Still only a theory, not a fact.


Based on the fact that every event in the universe is based on a logical prior event. Sort of like cause and effect, where there is always a logical outcome that could be traced to the origin/cause.
Eshploded
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Eshploded
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No matter what if you started over, everything would lead into an organized economy and government, its inevitable. Give me an example of how you would live with no government.


I am alone, a hermit basically, sitting on my island making my own home and finding my food.
chrishiot88
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chrishiot88
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It depends on what you are used to now people are used to having someone protect them and be afraid of a corrupt justice system.
Even without a goverment there still would be rules like on a children's playground there are rules but not writen and there shouldn't be people that enforce the law because they become the law.

woody_7007
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woody_7007
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Or creating the demand and a consumerist culture. And hell, I want 9999999999999999999 toys, make it for me!


The 3 main things that affect demand are price, income and substitute goods. This basic economic concept doesn't change whether it's capitalism or communism.

In addition just because people don't need toys doesn't mean they are a waste of resources. Its the Basic Economic Problem, limited resources and unlimited wants. The oppurtunity cost to the manufactrer of not making the toys and making something else is determined by the free market and therefore if there is demand for toys then they will be supplied. It has nothing to do with ideologies, just basic economics.

In other words, the material conditions determine the outcome of something.


Of course they do, however the past 100 or so years has proved Marx wrong, spectacularly. If there were going to be communist revolutions according to Marx it should have been in the industrial centres of the world eg USA, Fr and Britain not in Russia and China. Indeed the 2 most successful communist nations Russia and China were both agriculturally based showing his theory to be at fault. In any case Marx was just 1 man who created a theory, it amazes me people take his word as gospel.
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