ForumsWEPR[redirected]If God created all things

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DrCool1
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DrCool1
210 posts
Bard

Here is something to get the brain going. It's been said that God created ALL things. Also it's been said that God is 100 precent pure/good. So God created man and it was said that because of man's sinful actions bad/evil things were created. But if God created ALL things then God created bad/evil things, not man. So by God creating bad/evil things this does not make him 100 precent pure/good.

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Parsat
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Parsat
2,180 posts
Blacksmith

"If my cup won't hold but a pint, and yourn holds a quart, wouldn't ye be mean not to let me have my little half-measure full?"

Sojourner Truth, we knew you not. Unfortunately religious debates often end up like the proverbial Cantonese proverb of trying to get ducks wet.

But you know what? Emotions are a pretty poor indicator, because one finds plenty of people seem to be devoid of them. Some people believe what they want, and others believe because they don't. In the meanwhile, we should shift the argument to something a bit more substantial than picking apart at other people's faith, or lack thereof.

How do you determine the deference between the warm fuzzies you feel about your beliefs and the warm fuzzies someone else feels about there's? Why would your emotions be any more valid then someone else's?


Perhaps when said warm fuzzies are able to take a whole empire by storm in the span of around a century.

Considering there are about 10,000 practicing religions and even if we were to say Christianity was the right one that alone breaks down to around 35,000 denominations of just that one religion alone. I would defiantly say there is a good chance of picking the wrong belief system.


If picking a religion were a raffle or a lottery, certainly we'd have a good chance of picking the wrong belief system. As it stands the choice is a bit more complex than that.
Necropaxx
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Necropaxx
10 posts
Nomad

How do you determine the deference between the warm fuzzies you feel about your beliefs and the warm fuzzies someone else feels about there's? Why would your emotions be any more valid then someone else's?


OK, I sorta lied. I'm not asleep yet. But this is a good question. I'll sleep on it, and get back to you.
roman291
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roman291
54 posts
Peasant

[quoteHere is something to get the brain going. It's been said that God created ALL things. Also it's been said that God is 100 precent pure/good. So God created man and it was said that because of man's sinful actions bad/evil things were created. But if God created ALL things then God created bad/evil things, not man. So by God creating bad/evil things this does not make him 100 precent pure/good.[/quote]

This is just a possibility.

God created man with freewill. And God created Angels with some freewill. Satan was an archangel, it says it in the bible. Satan then got the idea of want more power from his freewill. God said no. Satan maybe tried to gain more power on his own. Satan was successful, but God caught him, and banished him from heaven, and imprisoned him for disobeying him in hell. Satan secretly found a way out of hell and got out then vowed to take revenge on God, by turning is new creations (humans) with complete freewill evil (against God and his teachings). So they will go to hell, and become his army against god.

I honestly think religion is all man made, and the bible is just based off of many stories from other religions.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

Perhaps when said warm fuzzies are able to take a whole empire by storm in the span of around a century.


No, just because I religion can become dominate in an empire doesn't validate it as being true. Other religions have managed dominance through out an empire as well through various means.

If picking a religion were a raffle or a lottery, certainly we'd have a good chance of picking the wrong belief system. As it stands the choice is a bit more complex than that.


If there is a one true religion out there isn't it sort of a lottery? There may be different ways you come to think you have the right one but until the big reveal (death) you don't get to find out for sure if you got it right or not.


God created man with freewill. And God created Angels with some freewill. Satan was an archangel, it says it in the bible. Satan then got the idea of want more power from his freewill. God said no. Satan maybe tried to gain more power on his own. Satan was successful, but God caught him, and banished him from heaven, and imprisoned him for disobeying him in hell. Satan secretly found a way out of hell and got out then vowed to take revenge on God, by turning is new creations (humans) with complete freewill evil (against God and his teachings). So they will go to hell, and become his army against god.


This would either be a God who is not omniscient/omnipotent thus a God with weaknesses, or a God who knew full well what freewill would lead to thus making him responsible (at least in part) for evil.

Neither of which most Christians would be willing to accept.
roman291
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roman291
54 posts
Peasant

As I have said emotional bias makes for a poor gauge of reality. Just because something makes you feel good doesn't make it real. I know it would make me feel good to live in a Star Trek like utopia, but believing I did wouldn't make it real.

Even if we were to say that how you feel about your religion was evidence for that religion being the correct one, then we would have to say all religions have the same evidence. Since they all contain people who truly feel there belief is the correct one and likely feel good because of there beliefs. Just for the sake of argument let's say emotion is valid evidence. How do you determine the deference between the warm fuzzies you feel about your beliefs and the warm fuzzies someone else feels about there's? Why would your emotions be any more valid then someone else's?


Sorry for double posting but...

@MageGrayWolf

what is reality? Could this universe just be an illusion? Could life just be a long dream before you die from your last life? I don't think we can know this answer until we are dead.

Anyways isn't the point of religion to give a person righteous philosophies and morals that help people be at peace with themselves not just mentally, but emotionally and physically too?
Somers
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Somers
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Nomad

The way I see it, if there is a god an I follow him, then I go to heaven. If there isnt, well I just rot in the ground with everyone else. But what if their is? I like to have my chances on the highside.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

what is reality? Could this universe just be an illusion? Could life just be a long dream before you die from your last life? I don't think we can know this answer until we are dead.


Your right we could just be brains in jars. But so long as we can get the same description off something through independent means (objective evidence) it's reasonable to assume it exists. If there the evidence all points in different directions then we know something is wrong there. If there is no evidence for something then it's reasonable to assume it doesn't exist.

Anyways isn't the point of religion to give a person righteous philosophies and morals that help people be at peace with themselves not just mentally, but emotionally and physically too?


For some yes but it's far to often used as a means of control. Also it doesn't always jive with reality. As such you have groups of people demanding there fantasy be treated as reality.

The way I see it, if there is a god an I follow him, then I go to heaven. If there isnt, well I just rot in the ground with everyone else. But what if their is? I like to have my chances on the highside.


As I pointed out with the different religions and then all the different denominations of those religions the choice isn't just 50/50 but rather a huge spectrum of choices. So really your chance is more like 0.0001% of just getting the right religion if there even is one.
whyismynametom
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whyismynametom
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Nomad

So really your chance is more like 0.0001% of just getting the right religion if there even is one.

Why would it be that low for Christians, one of the oldest and most followed(one of) meaning if you want to look at it probability it would have a far greater % than some small made recently cult
pHacon
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pHacon
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Nomad

Why would it be that low for Christians, one of the oldest and most followed(one of) meaning if you want to look at it probability it would have a far greater % than some small made recently cult


If it's based on age and all that jazz, I think I'll go and sacrifice a virgin to the sun so it rises again tomorrow.
hojoko
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hojoko
510 posts
Peasant

Why would it be that low for Christians, one of the oldest and most followed(one of) meaning if you want to look at it probability it would have a far greater % than some small made recently cult


I think the point pHacon subtly tried to make is that age has nothing to do with the reality of the world. Just because a small cult has been formed relatively recently, that has no correlation to how the world was created, and how the universe goes about it's business. it's as low for every religion, regardless of maturity.
pHacon
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pHacon
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Nomad

I think the point pHacon subtly tried to make is that age has nothing to do with the reality of the world. Just because a small cult has been formed relatively recently, that has no correlation to how the world was created, and how the universe goes about it's business. it's as low for every religion, regardless of maturity.


Yes, that's pretty much what I meant, I chose to be blunt because that makes people think, something drawn out answers like this one don't because people tend to either agree or disagree with the first sentence and block the rest out.

My opinion is that Christianity and other monotheistic religions are dominant in the world today because they originated at a time when humans were mentally, emotionally, and spiritually mature enough to conceive of such a world order that exists today, and technology happened to be advanced enough to auto-catalyze itself enough to reach that goal.
hojoko
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hojoko
510 posts
Peasant

My opinion is that Christianity and other monotheistic religions are dominant in the world today because they originated at a time when humans were mentally, emotionally, and spiritually mature enough to conceive of such a world order that exists today, and technology happened to be advanced enough to auto-catalyze itself enough to reach that goal.


I actually think that the underlying reason for Christianities ultimate success as a dominant religion is because Christianity was the first religion to have a influential Martyr die in a country where word travels fast.

Notice that Christianity didn't expand until after the death of Jesus.
pHacon
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pHacon
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Nomad

Notice that Christianity didn't expand until after the death of Jesus.


It wasn't really Christianity until he died, but that does seem to tie in to what I said, you just have to apply a number of variables.

What would the world be without hallucinatory dreams?
That's what REALLY spread the religion.
hojoko
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hojoko
510 posts
Peasant

What would the world be without hallucinatory dreams?
That's what REALLY spread the religion.


This is the sole purpose of LSD, which frankly, has a lot to do with religious ideals in my opinion.
Necropaxx
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Necropaxx
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Nomad

How do you determine the deference (sic) between the warm fuzzies you feel about your beliefs and the warm fuzzies someone else feels about there's? (sic) Why would your emotions be any more valid then someone else's?


Well, I thought about that, and I've come up with two possible answers. The first is because I believe my religion contains more revealed truth. This is not to say that other people's religion's 'warm fuzzies' are invalid; on the contrary, they are very valid. I believe God touches everyone's souls, be it through Christ (the 'best' way) or through Allah, Buddha (his teachings), or even the dark lord Atheia. :P However, I believe that Christianity, with the fullness of truth, will give you the warmest fuzzies.

Also, I prayed about your question. The answer I got was in the form of a verse. The verse was John 14:6 - "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me." If Jesus says He is the only way to get to heaven, I'd say that carries some weight. I know other religions also make this claim, but as I said, I believe Christianity has the fullness of truth.
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