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DrCool1
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DrCool1
210 posts
Bard

Here is something to get the brain going. It's been said that God created ALL things. Also it's been said that God is 100 precent pure/good. So God created man and it was said that because of man's sinful actions bad/evil things were created. But if God created ALL things then God created bad/evil things, not man. So by God creating bad/evil things this does not make him 100 precent pure/good.

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MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,470 posts
Farmer

samy
You didn't answer any of my questions, nor did you provide an example of objective morality. If all you can do is reiterate your previous statements as if they are answers then there is a clear flaw in your logic.

wajor59
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wajor59
909 posts
Nomad

Yes I think an entire population of people being lifted off the ground and safely carried miles away to freedom would leave a good number of records in it's wake.


So why can't you imagine the very same thing's happening in the future? The book of Revelation says that in the last days we will witness all kinds of signs and wonders.


First off what does God need with an army? Second I would think after being lifted up into the air and carried far away, then having the thing that just did that say 'obey me'. They might be just a bit willing to listen at that point. Wouldn't you?


That's just silly, Aunty Em?, Aunty Em? Seriously, one day we'll all be lifted and carried far, far, away.

God was training His Army in the wilderness until a leader would emerge to replace Moses.
That's right. Moses who wrote and spoke the law, sinned.
He spent 40 years with the children of God, until God was satisfied that His people were ready to inherit their 'romised land' that Moses would never possess. He was allowed to look upon it but not live in it.

This is our metaphor for heaven. When we all stand before the throne of Jesus, we will have to give an account of our deeds, good and bad. So, there will be those who see heaven but won't be able to live in it, inside the gates.


Absolute truth does exist; however absolute knowledge in the human population does not. Meaning that relativity exists but only in our minds.


There is truth value for unbelievers which means something is either true or false.
Believer's understand and acknowledge absolute truth because Jesus is absolute truth.

Which relativity do you mean?

When considering the 'special theory of relativity that Einstein published in 1905, stating that all motion is relative and the velocity of light in a vacuum has a constant value that nothing can exceed. Light is the fastest of either time or gravity.

Then, in 1915, Einstein's general theory of relativity extended the theory to accelerated motion and gravitation, which was treated as a curvature of the space-time continuum. It predicted that light rays would be deflected and shifted in wavelength when passing through a substantial gravitational field. According to my dictionary effects have been experimentally confirmed.

screwing what up? earth sucked before we came around.


I think he was referring to Adam and Eve's disobedience that made them get kicked out of the Garden of Eden, which was supposed to be our paradise on earth.

but what makes a sin a sin?

Disobeying God is a sin. Christian's are to follow the ten commandments and obey all government laws.

Wajor, may you please not caps lock the word God? It makes your posts a bit of a challenge to read, because you use the word so frequently >_<


I was lazy, I'll try not to but it's so much easier to type w/caps-lock on. Thanks for asking so nicely!


Sooo . . . are you basically saying that diseases aren't caused by micro-organisms? Or that a form of earthly life wasn't created by God, the creator of all life?


I see a major contradiction.



Viruses are not sentient. They have no point of view. Also, why would a god create something to harm us deliberately? I'm arguing purely on the terms of the creation story itself, assuming that diseases are considered evil, which they are considered to be by the Bible.


God allowed Satan to attack Job and commanded Satan not to kill Job. It's in the book Job. We've been over this before. It's probably on this thread, try 40 pages back.
God cursed the ground after Cain murdered his brother Able, in the book of Genesis, try looking about ten pages back.
Darkroot
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Darkroot
2,763 posts
Peasant

It feels like I'm arguing against an fictional character or someones imaginary friend. No matter what logic is presented to you, you pull out some random facts that they pull out their magic book.

Believer's understand and acknowledge absolute truth because Jesus is absolute truth.


How do you even argue against that? That doesn't even make logical sense. Your like P then Q and logic doesn't work like that.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,470 posts
Farmer

So why can't you imagine the very same thing's happening in the future? The book of Revelation says that in the last days we will witness all kinds of signs and wonders.


Just because I can imagine something doesn't mean I think it's real.

That's just silly, Aunty Em?, Aunty Em? Seriously, one day we'll all be lifted and carried far, far, away.


So it's silly if God had done it back then but it's not silly for him to do it sometime in the future? Also how is it any more silly then any of the other things that have been done in the Bible?

That's just silly, Aunty Em?, Aunty Em? Seriously, one day we'll all be lifted and carried far, far, away.


I just love these non answers I've been getting lately. I feel a bit like Shatner in a crappy sequel. What does God need with an Army? You didn't answer me.

Disobeying God is a sin.


God commands that you not kill, God also says to kill witches. So how do you obey here?

God allowed Satan to attack Job and commanded Satan not to kill Job. It's in the book Job. We've been over this before. It's probably on this thread, try 40 pages back.


A pointless action at best and cruel at worst on Gods part.

God cursed the ground after Cain murdered his brother Able, in the book of Genesis, try looking about ten pages back.


So God turned viruses and the like bad %&^*ing over all of humanity again just for the action of a single person?

It feels like I'm arguing against an fictional character or someones imaginary friend. No matter what logic is presented to you, you pull out some random facts that they pull out their magic book.


We pretty much are.

How do you even argue against that?


We can argue against it by pointing out the glaring logical fallacies. But keep in mind It's likely we are dealing with people to immersed in there own self delusion to understand how it's a fallacy in the first place.
If your in it to convince another person, you're more likely to have a third party "fence sitter" read the debate and see how illogical it really is.
Guliosh
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Guliosh
15 posts
Nomad

I do not believe in god just because facts of physics have already proven him wrong dozens of times

wolf1991
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wolf1991
3,440 posts
Farmer

Very well, without nit picking every single quote that accuses me of making false claims, lacking evidence and generally calling me an idiot I'm going to adress them all in one go.

I was a student at a Catholic school for nine years of my educational carreer. During that time I was force fed more religion than I can pissibly bear. Since then I've had others force their belief upon me. That being said I HAVE read the bible, however, not seeing it as anything more than a form of propaganda I refuse to allow it for "evidence" because I do not believe it to hold anything of value to me. Also I do not memoirze passages and quotes from the bible, but by all means I'll start paraphrasing things I do know, just don't expect a reference.

wolf1991
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wolf1991
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Farmer

By reference I mean verse, chapter ect

wajor59
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wajor59
909 posts
Nomad

So it's silly if God had done it back then but it's not silly for him to do it sometime in the future? Also how is it any more silly then any of the other things that have been done in the Bible?


It's silly to try to rewrite the past. What you wrote, the way you wrote it made me laugh, I do have a sense of humor.

Now how can I respond to a wide open, general question like that?

Besides, God works in mysterious ways; to me, I understand the mysteries that I've studied but the challenge is to help others understand. It's impossible without the Holy Spirit.

To you, the holy spirit makes about as much sense as listening to your stomach and letting it make the decisions for you.


I just love these non answers I've been getting lately. I feel a bit like Shatner in a crappy sequel. What does God need with an Army? You didn't answer me.


Maybe I didn't complete the story and I do apologize. You are intelligent Mage, and I don't mean any disrespect. Sometimes I get the impression you already know the answer(s) before you ask them, which leads me to only supply the in-between bits of the story.


Why was God training an army? Why did He need an Army?

God was training an army to battle against sinful people who had spiritually, mentally and physically sinned against Him.

Spiritually, by worshiping false gods/goddesses to the point that they were doubting that God existed. Mentally, by thinking depraved, sexually deviant thoughts, angry murderous thoughts, lusting after money, each others wives, property, etc. Physically, because their hands were shaping the clay, carving the wood or smelting the bronze, silver or golden idols; fighting, raping, and killing everyone and children, even animals to the point that God said, enough!
Imagine open air prisons where rapists, murders, thieves, baby and kidnappers were all your relatives and close neighbors; or, multiply the worst ghetto you can think of by 10.

God had to train a special elite force that could conquer not only the physical rulers over these sinful people but minister to them by setting an example of what God expected of His people. God's chosen people are a people set apart from everyone else.
It took 40 years until God was pleased with His people that were spiritually, mentally and physically fit and equipped to carry out God's commandments.
The 'romised land' was occupied by the sinful people I described before, so when the leader of God's people was selected by God and Moses was buried, the army was ready to fight.


God commands that you not kill, God also says to kill witches. So how do you obey here?


I obey by praying, studying God's Word and practicing defensive moves. The Bible says all I have to do is 'show up' to the battle, whatever, where ever it may be and the victory is Jesus'.
I'm not afraid of what any human or spirit can do to my physical self because my spirit is protected by Jesus. The worst any witch could do to me is to send me on to my reward quicker, that's all they would be able to accomplish.


A pointless action at best and cruel at worst on Gods part.


I think this response was about the story of Job and I think this is the same response you gave the first time?
How do you wish for me to reply?
The story of Job isn't pointless because it teaches us to face down Satan in all of his forms by keeping our faith strong.
Everything can be taken away from us at any time but not our faith in God.
The true believer will remain steadfast while everyone else around him/her is criticizing and blaming God.

So God turned viruses and the like bad %&^*ing over all of humanity again just for the action of a single person?


Yes, God cursed the ground because of Cain's crime. Only once. The Garden of Eden was paradise on earth. The Bible doesn't explain what life was like outside of the Garden of Eden so it's pointless to speculate.

I don't want to use scientific terms because I'm not a geologist and I haven't studied archaeology but I have started researching for a reliable web site that someone is helping me to locate.
Would you like to help too?


If your in it to convince another person, you're more likely to have a third party "fence sitter" read the debate and see how illogical it really is.


These are the people that God hates. God prefers if you are either hot or cold, not tepid.
BeastMode10
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BeastMode10
374 posts
Nomad

God was training an army to battle against sinful people who had spiritually, mentally and physically sinned against Him.


Uh...God's an omnipotent, all mighty ruler, so could't he just smite the crap out of sinful people?

It would have a profound mental effect on sinners, and the fear it could generate would effectively prevent sinners from doing sinful stuff.

I obey by praying, studying God's Word and practicing defensive moves. The Bible says all I have to do is 'show up' to the battle, whatever, where ever it may be and the victory is Jesus'.
I'm not afraid of what any human or spirit can do to my physical self because my spirit is protected by Jesus. The worst any witch could do to me is to send me on to my reward quicker, that's all they would be able to accomplish


The point Mage was making here is that God commands not to kill, while simultaneously commanding to kill witches. Can you explain the contradiction?

These are the people that God hates. God prefers if you are either hot or cold, not tepid.


Doesn't that contradict God's OMNIbenevolence? He's supposed to love all people, right? Otherwise, religious worshippers wouldn't be praising God for being all caring.
wajor59
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wajor59
909 posts
Nomad

Uh...God's an omnipotent, all mighty ruler, so could't he just smite the crap out of sinful people?


Yes.

The point Mage was making here is that God commands not to kill, while simultaneously commanding to kill witches. Can you explain the contradiction?




Yes, one of the commandments is 'Thou shalt not kill'. If God orders me to go to battle, which by the way I did answer Mage's question, I will go. The Holy Spirit will tell me when and where to 'show up'. I do not find this a contradiction because battling God's enemies is all a part of the covenant between me and God.

Yea, finally I can start referring to the New Testament, let's look at Hebrews 10:26-31, even though I could write a Sunday School lesson from just verse 31. It says,
"It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God."

26) If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27) but only a fearful expectation of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
28) Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without * mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29) How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sacrificed him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30) For we know Him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay, and again, "The Lord will judge His people."


So, yes it is a dreadful thing to stand before the Lord after I have trampled the Son under foot and treated the blood of the covenant, which is a promise, as an unholy thing.

These rules apply to me because I have received the knowledge of the truth, this truth is the grace of Jesus Christ who after rising from the dead and reappearing to apostles.
One of which, Thomas, had to place his fingers over the wounds of Christ before he would believe that Jesus was real, really alive and standing right in front of him.






Doesn't that contradict God's OMNIbenevolence? He's supposed to love all people, right? Otherwise, religious worshippers wouldn't be praising God for being all caring.[i][quote]

After reading the above if you still did me to answer this question I will. To me, I've already answered it with the help of the verses from the book of Hebrews.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,470 posts
Farmer

It's silly to try to rewrite the past. What you wrote, the way you wrote it made me laugh, I do have a sense of humor.


I'm not rewriting the story. I'm simply pointing out that the method used was malevolent compared to what God could have done.

Now how can I respond to a wide open, general question like that?


It's not a generalized question. Your claiming that God will eventually lift the worthy off to a better place or any of the other fabulous stories such as talking snakes and this makes perfect sense, but claim that if God had done this with Moses and his people it would have been silly. All I see is you contradicting yourself and I wanted you to explain this contradiction.

To you, the holy spirit makes about as much sense as listening to your stomach and letting it make the decisions for you.


Actually it makes more sense since at least I know my stomach is real. Besides I do listen to my stomach when I'm hungry. :P

You are intelligent Mage, and I don't mean any disrespect. Sometimes I get the impression you already know the answer(s) before you ask them, which leads me to only supply the in-between bits of the story.


Yeah I do, do that sometimes. But I do it for a reason. I might turn out to be wrong and I can correct my thinking or the person could give me an answer that will get me to think about the matter in a way I had not before, thus allowing me to improve my answer.

God was training an army to battle against sinful people who had spiritually, mentally and physically sinned against Him.


I'm still not seeing why God would need an army for this? You know, being God and all.

Spiritually, by worshiping false gods/goddesses to the point that they were doubting that God existed.


This reason just seems petty and against the concept of free will. A supreme being who created everything shouldn't require worship. Any god who does should be put into question.

Mentally, by thinking depraved, sexually deviant thoughts, angry murderous thoughts, lusting after money, each others wives, property, etc.


Again with the thought crimes, huh?

Physically, because their hands were shaping the clay, carving the wood or smelting the bronze, silver or golden idols; fighting, raping, and killing everyone and children, even animals to the point that God said, enough!


Making idols, SO %^&*in WHAT? I could see a supreme being finding it maybe a bit silly, but actually taking concern with this just seems petty.
The rest I would see as issues but it's nothing compared to the things God has done he even did many of those things himself. Even so God couldn't have stopped this himself?

God had to train a special elite force that could conquer not only the physical rulers over these sinful people but minister to them by setting an example of what God expected of His people. God's chosen people are a people set apart from everyone else.
It took 40 years until God was pleased with His people that were spiritually, mentally and physically fit and equipped to carry out God's commandments.
The 'romised land' was occupied by the sinful people I described before, so when the leader of God's people was selected by God and Moses was buried, the army was ready to fight.


Why does all this just make me think of the crusades?

I obey by praying, studying God's Word and practicing defensive moves. The Bible says all I have to do is 'show up' to the battle, whatever, where ever it may be and the victory is Jesus'.
I'm not afraid of what any human or spirit can do to my physical self because my spirit is protected by Jesus. The worst any witch could do to me is to send me on to my reward quicker, that's all they would be able to accomplish.


Umm, what Beast said...

I don't want to use scientific terms because I'm not a geologist and I haven't studied archaeology but I have started researching for a reliable web site that someone is helping me to locate.
Would you like to help too?


Sure what would you like to know?

These are the people that God hates. God prefers if you are either hot or cold, not tepid.


So someone who remains undecided is hate while someone who Goes one side or the other is loved?

So what your saying a person who has hurt no one and just doesn't know and can't decide if God exists is hated while these people are not?
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/MageGrayWolf/god_hates_fags.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/MageGrayWolf/islamic-extremists-extermin.gif

Even if not. Isn't hate kind of contradicting the concept of an all loving God, by going directly against what this God is suppose to be?
thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,824 posts
Shepherd

It's your job to have more than one point of view it doesn't require a sentinel being to do so.


You really have no reason to tell me what I already know. I was using the word 'evil' to refer to the diseases because they were and are considered evil by the Abrahamic religions. I was speaking in context, and you're taking what I'm saying out of context, and it's annoying. Please stop.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,470 posts
Farmer

Yes, one of the commandments is 'Thou shalt not kill'. If God orders me to go to battle, which by the way I did answer Mage's question, I will go. The Holy Spirit will tell me when and where to 'show up'. I do not find this a contradiction because battling God's enemies is all a part of the covenant between me and God.


So if God is commanding you to kill and not kill you would just kill those who were specified? Okay, umm, stay away from deal? Because now you just sound dangerous.

let's see if I can get that images to work.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/MageGrayWolf/god_hates_fags.jpg
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,470 posts
Farmer

Hmm, nope. Well it was a picture of WestBoro Baptist Church doing what they do at funerals.

samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

You didn't answer any of my questions, nor did you provide an example of objective morality. If all you can do is reiterate your previous statements as if they are answers then there is a clear flaw in your logic.


Sure I did, I'm confused why your not accepting them as an answer though.

How do you even argue against that? That doesn't even make logical sense. Your like P then Q and logic doesn't work like that.


Your dumb. Seriously do you understand that if there is no absolute truth than there is no absolute logic and I can continue to ignore your posts because your the one not making any sense not me.
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