Forums → WEPR → Disproving god

Neither is war, racism or any other injustice in the world. However, we can point the blame at the christians and other religions for those things. In history almost every single problem with out world has stemmed from "My god is better than yours"

Are you trying to say that human beings wouldn't have wars if God didn't exist?

Yes, I understand religion effects almost everything we do. But if it doesn't effect something in a negative way, don't worry about it! That was my point!

Your point is a bit skewed. You seem to constantly take the stance of religion being this benign thing that if you leave it alone it will leave you alone. For some this may be true but there are plenty of others that are not this way, on many levels of the spectrum not just the extremist groups. However even the benign aspect of religion when in enough numbers creates a permissive environment for those who aren't. It's this aspect that the atheist truly opposes. So when asked the question why we care it is not a question of why we care about those not pushing there beliefs in any way on others but why we care about those who are and those who allow it to happen.

Point 2 Is highly unlikely, but if you noticed I didn't even make a point 3, which would have been to persuade them God doesn't exist at all. You just won't be able too.

3. teach the person how to use critical thinking skills improving there ability to reason. Just as a teacher in school this sometime requires pointing out clear errors.

but lived a life of good morals

Like bigotry and violence.

google: Fundies say the darndest things.

3. teach the person how to use critical thinking skills improving there ability to reason. Just as a teacher in school this sometime requires pointing out clear errors.

we can point out clear errors in anything except laws. theorys can always have something wrong with them so untill the big bang theory becomes the big bang law i wont believe in it. i will believe in my belief.

athiests get mad when people push there beliefs on them, but then they go and do the same thing (alot of the time). i dont find anything wrong with any religeon, as long as youre respectfull to others its all good. dont be a hipocrit respect someones beliefs and the world will slowley become a better place

Your point is a bit skewed. You seem to constantly take the stance of religion being this benign thing that if you leave it alone it will leave you alone.

No I don't. If you befriend religious people who hold opposite views than you on a particular subject, you can easily persuade them that they are over exaggerating, thus you can make them step down and even support your own cause. It's a fact, people hate being told that they are wrong. Tell a Christian that his heart is in the right place and that his morals are gold, and he will likely begin to agree with you when you say "welll, homosexuals aren't that bad. Sure, it's gross (you may have to lie some), but they aren't causing anyone any harm. God will judge them in heaven." If that's enough to make them stop their anti-gay activities, then I could care less if they believe in God or not. I could care less if they are using proper logic or not.

3. teach the person how to use critical thinking skills improving there ability to reason. Just as a teacher in school this sometime requires pointing out clear errors.

How do you suppose we do that? We teach them how to critically think by teaching them God doesn't exist.?

If there's anything you should know by now, it's that people learn when they want to learn. Why do you think teachers repeat themselves in class so much? Because when they have a class full of students who don't want to be there, they must say something over and over until the students remember the repeated phrase.

When you're in a debate, you will often find people aren't there to learn. They are there to get their point across. They don't want to be told that they are wrong. They don't want you to teach them anything. They want you to side with them. That is why it's VERY important not to tell those people that God doesn't exist. As soon as you do, they put up a shield and they stop listening. It is human psychology.

People will believe what they want to believe. You fail to realize that not everybody seeks knowledge like you do. Most people seek comfort. If there's one thing most churches offer, it's comfort. I can smoke a joint or a cigarette to calm me down. I can drink my troubles away. Some people enjoy going to church to releave them of their stress.

So when asked the question why we care it is not a question of why we care about those not pushing there beliefs in any way on others but why we care about those who are and those who allow it to happen.

If the problem is, as you say, people forcing their religious views on you, then there is an easy solution. If someone asks you to believe in God, simply say "no thanks." Most people out there will drop the topic when you politely say "no." If not, you can figure it out without having to go on a mission to abolish all theism.

If the problem is religious influence on politics, then you have to challenge it one way or another, and that's where I come in to explain that there are better ways to solve problems than to simply persuade people that God doesn't exist. If it's the religious influence on politics that are bothering you, then you need to figure out a way to persuade those people that their God doesn't want them doing whatever it is they are doing.

If you simply look down on people for thinking illogically, then, I don't know what to tell you. I think you would be better off spending your time picking at the stupidity of star struck people and the illogical behaviors of everyone than just theists.

Why try to persuade everyone that they are wrong when you can push for coexistence?

3. teach the person how to use critical thinking skills improving there ability to reason. Just as a teacher in school this sometime requires pointing out clear errors.

Also, the belief in God is not an error. You have to stop referring to the belief in God as an error because if you're talking to a theist, it makes you sound close minded. If I believe in God, then I obviously don't see it as an error. By using "it's an error to believe in God" to justify a point you make, it doesn't mean squat to a theist.

I really don't know how to explain it. You are using atheist perceptions to justify your logic, which won't help you one bit in a debate with a theist because the won't consider your atheist perceptions are credible sources.

The point is, pointing out where someone is wrong seldom works in any debate unless they know they are wrong.

Woody, all I can say is that there are better ways to change a man's mind than to tell him he's wrong.

If it were that simple, i doubt thered be any need for this discussion to take place.

As it stands theist modes of thinking justify social and political structures which subjugate billions worldwide, and yet theists have the arrogance to complain about atheists trying to convert them? Ridiculous.

As it stands theist modes of thinking justify social and political structures which subjugate billions worldwide, and yet theists have the arrogance to complain about atheists trying to convert them? Ridiculous.

You're still debating with me as if the only solution to these problems is to end theism all together.

You're still debating with me as if the only solution to these problems is to end theism all together.

I dont think i have proposed any solutions, but what i have been trying to do is to point out the irony in attacking atheism for seeking to convert theists, when theists have been doing the opposite for hundreds of years, with devastating consequences. Sure theres nothing inherently wrong about theism, but many of the manifestations it takes are extremely harmful to many people.

I dont think i have proposed any solutions, but what i have been trying to do is to point out the irony in attacking atheism for seeking to convert theists, when theists have been doing the opposite for hundreds of years, with devastating consequences.

I understand that theism has caused many problems for many many years. Not once have I disagreed with this statement. I am not focusing on the past problems that religion has caused, only the present problems.

Sure theres nothing inherently wrong about theism, but many of the manifestations it takes are extremely harmful to many people.

Exactly. That is why everyone should take a stand and help change religious policies.

I'm not attacking atheism. I see no problem with atheists at all. I'm merely attacking this atheist standpoint.

Here's something to consider. If you're going to try and persuade a group of people that gays are okay by telling them God doesn't exist, they will put up resistance. I have said this before, it happens all the time. If you tell the people that they are justified in their beliefs, but that they shouldn't attack the gays, then you may find other theists joining you to help the other group change their policies against gays.

Basically, what I'm saying is, if you try to explain God doesn't exist to end the whole anti-gay activists, then you probably aren't going to get much support from other theist groups that do support gay rights.

Here's something to consider. If you're going to try and persuade a group of people that gays are okay by telling them God doesn't exist, they will put up resistance.

I agree with you here. However thats not really the fundamental argument for gay rights, as far as gay rights activists are concerned. They say that since they live in secular countries, whether or not you believe in god should not have any sway as to whether or not gays are allowed to marry. Its not even a question of religion, its a question of legal principle. Unfortunately anti gay rights theists cant really be bargained with. If you believe in an absolute truth, there is nothing that could ever make you change your mind is there?

I agree with you here. However thats not really the fundamental argument for gay rights, as far as gay rights activists are concerned. They say that since they live in secular countries, whether or not you believe in god should not have any sway as to whether or not gays are allowed to marry. Its not even a question of religion, its a question of legal principle.

Quite so, but there are different ways to win a battle.

If you believe in an absolute truth, there is nothing that could ever make you change your mind is there?

Catholic School.

Most people who believe in God think they know exactly what he wants. When it comes down to it, their mood effects what their God wants. If they are disgusted, God is disgusted. If they are happy with something, God is happy with something. You must change their own view on something to change how they view God, because God is often based off each individual's own morals.

Trust me, it is possible to change the way people believe in God. People are constantly remolding him into newer shapes.

Trust me, it is possible to change the way people believe in God. People are constantly remolding him into newer shapes.

I think its possible to change the mind of most moderate theists. However those arent the ones that need to be worried about, since those arent normally the ones campaigning in order to restrict minority rights and the like. Extremists, although they dont represent theism as a whole, cause the vast majority of problems associated with theism. Until an adequate method is found which convert radicals and fundamentalists, this debate will always continue.

Tell a Christian that his heart is in the right place and that his morals are gold,

While it may be true that a Christians heart is in the right place I don't think all Christian morals are gold. Should I then just lie?
It's a change of they way people think, sometimes it's a matter of challenging long held beliefs. But changing those beliefs is only secondary.

How do you suppose we do that? We teach them how to critically think by teaching them God doesn't exist.?

Well one aspect would be to point out flaws in there logic as for not believing in God they can come to that conclusion for themselves.

Why do you think teachers repeat themselves in class so much? Because when they have a class full of students who don't want to be there, they must say something over and over until the students remember the repeated phrase.

Yes repetition is a tool in learning weather it be with a group that wants to learn or not. Perhaps you've heard the phrase "show me proof God exists" once or twice around here?

When you're in a debate, you will often find people aren't there to learn. They are there to get their point across. They don't want to be told that they are wrong.

A true win in a debate is what you take away from it this goes double for online debates.

People will believe what they want to believe. You fail to realize that not everybody seeks knowledge like you do. Most people seek comfort.

So are you saying it's acceptable to ignore reality in favor of a comforting fantasy to the point you think that fantasy is reality?

If the problem is, as you say, people forcing their religious views on you, then there is an easy solution. If someone asks you to believe in God, simply say "no thanks." Most people out there will drop the topic when you politely say "no." If not, you can figure it out without having to go on a mission to abolish all theism.

Again you appear to be trying to make the claim that if you leave religion alone it will leave you alone. It goes far deeper then even those door to door Bible thumpers who like to knock on my door just as I'm waking up. It effects the politics and laws I have to live under, it fights to pollute the education of our schools, it's robbing it's members of free thinking worst of all the kids, it has made large attempts to restrict scientific breakthroughs, there are a number of states where someone who does not believe in this fantasy can't hold a political office... Just to name a few.

Also, the belief in God is not an error. You have to stop referring to the belief in God as an error because if you're talking to a theist, it makes you sound close minded.

When we are talking about a specific God/s it can most defiantly can be an error. We can look at the evidence of the claims of that God and examine how it matches to reality. If it doesn't match then we can say such a belief is in error.

So are you saying it's acceptable to ignore reality in favor of a comforting fantasy to the point you think that fantasy is reality?

come one you make things like islam and christianity sound so harsh. its not a fantasy. i dont think i live in the zoony world with fishes that can talk. i believe god made jesus who died for our sins. the church isnt jsut to teach you about god it helps you into a better state of mind. its not all about the hardcore parts of the bible its about it all as a whole. and what its done for people as a whole in our modern era

i know people that used to be hardcore addicts and users untill they had a sponser and were rehabilitating. they went to the church and found meening for themselves, sure the relapced but every addict does and the church helped them through it.

its when people blow everything otu of preportion with religeon that things go wrong. like hitler and stuff. but when you look at it, there has been no religeous war in a very long time and as long as people respect eachother, there wont need to be another one.

you act like all the books and the people are just a straight do this and dont do that and you will be good, but its not theres more to it.