Forums → WEPR → Disproving god
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So I just have a question to every one. What is the point in proving god to not exist? What makes it worth while to sit and flip out on people, the goverment, schools, kids, parents.....that they are wrong, and science is wrong?
I understand having an oppinion, and trying to get others to beilve that. But Have any of you heard of Pascals wager?
What he said was basically, if you belive in god, and he is real, you lived a good live, and if you belive in god, and he's not real, you lost nothing, but lived a life of good morals, which I will touch on in a second. However, If he is real, and you didn't beilve you go to hell. And if you didn't beilve and he isn't real, then you lost nothing, other then being remembered as a person who didn't care about morals.
I would like you to go read the ten commandments, and the other moral wrongs in the bible. How are ANY of them bad?
All I'm really trying to gather here, is what is the point in tryign to prove god as fake? Why does it matter if you beilve in god? And what do you lose by beilveing in him?
- 352 Replies
To just believe without proof I lose my ability to accurately gauge reality. Just to name one reason.
Not really.
The problem with atheists trying to disprove God is the fact that they sometimes make it a personal mission to persuade others that he does not exist.
1. If it's a flawed way of thinking, what harm is it causing? A puppy doesn't die each time a person has a flaw in their thinking process.
2. Let's say that religion does effect a choice they make. You can either a) tell them God doesn't exist and have them put up more resistance or b) feed onto their beliefs in God and change their mind on whatever problem they are causing.
If a theist is against homosexuality, who cares?! Most people against homosexuality isn't doing squat to keep gay marriage illegal. Those who are against gay rights and actually do partake in anti-gay activities can be persuaded that God doesn't hate gays. It's easier to persuade an anti-gay christian that God supports homosexuality than to persuade one that he doesn't exist.
Abortion, atheists who use the right of abortion to attack theism are morons. Many atheists are against abortion because they also consider the unborn to be alive (which they scientifically are!)
Yes, people use Religion to justify their choices. Sometimes they justify good, sometimes they justify bad. Am I a mod purely because I am dedicated to the site, or do I choose to mod because I wish to help people in the name of God?
"But Nemo, you're a shit mod!" well pretend I'm a helpful one.
The point is, my actions are my actions. My reasoning behind my actions are my own. If you know the reasoning behind my actions and you support my actions, you would be foolish to change my reasoning. If you know the reasoning of my actions but you don't support my actions, then you can either use my reasoning against me or disprove my reasoning all together. When talking to theists, it is best to allow them to believe in God. That way, you can change their negative views and allow them to justify the good actions they make.
Many people fall into a deep depression because they don't understand why they are alive. Sometimes these people are theist, sometimes they aren't. Many times, religion has been used to save both these people.
Don't act like religion is nothing but trouble.
Have you ever heard of the Fox and the Grapes?
One hot summer's day a Fox was strolling through an orchard till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over a lofty branch. "Just the thing to quench my thirst," quoth he. Drawing back a few paces, he took a run and a jump, and just missed the bunch. Turning round again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success. Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel, but at last had to give it up, and walked away with his nose in the air, saying: "I am sure they are sour."
-An Aesop's Fable
Moral: It is easy to despise what you cannot get
Yes, the moral of the story is quite important, don't disdain what you cannot get. However, I shall use this story in a different way.
You see, the fox lied to himself to comfort his mind. If a theist wants to believe in God so that they may have a peace of mind, why not let them have it? A peace of mind is infinitely more valuable than all the knowledge in the world.
If a theist is doing something stupid in the name of God, there are better ways to handle the situation than to turn them from God.
"Thou Shalt Not Have Any Gods Before Me"
So demanding
Not mindless if youre smart enough to get it.
To just believe without proof I lose my ability to accurately gauge reality. Just to name one reason.
What the hell is an accuracy gauge
*Accurately Gauge* it means practically to measure his sense of reality or something like that, becareful not to misinterpret what other are saying, it causes problems...
To measure sense of reality. I cannot see how beliving in a deity when there is no explaination otherwise of how the world became could ruin that
To measure sense of reality. I cannot see how beliving in a deity when there is no explaination otherwise of how the world became could ruin that
Um that's only if you believe soley in religion. You do realize science has explainations for how the earth and everything around us formed right?
The reason why atheists like myself try so hard to prove there is no god.
Is because I think people are wasting their lives on some 2000 year old book yes the holy bible and same for other religions, some ancient text that tells you what to do and not to do and its written by humans who make mistakes. Besides they lived in a totally diffrent envoirment.
Im sorry if I offended any religious person with this and im sure theres some wisdom we can stil use today in the bible or other religious texts.
But I cant believe some god gave those people magicly the knowledge to write it all down.
Not to forget most off the stories in the bible were told from person to person a long time before they were written down making the it less accurate.
And last I don't mind people who read the bible or any other holy text but please dont take it to serious rather use it as a guide line to live with good morals
Ps: I'm sorry for any grammar or spelling mistakes but english isn't my native language
I'm honestly disappointed that nobody replied to my post yet over on page 2. I would appreciate it if someone could try arguing against it.
I would like to see the response to that as well. Let me think more on it, though. It's just that I agreed fully.
1. If it's a flawed way of thinking, what harm is it causing? A puppy doesn't die each time a person has a flaw in their thinking process.
In reality, it does affect other people. Try telling women in saudi arabia it doesnt matter if the society in which she lives oppresses women to a degree where they can be executed for adultery.
2. Let's say that religion does effect a choice they make. You can either a) tell them God doesn't exist and have them put up more resistance
If you claim that god does not exist, you will likely be tortured by the mutawwain. Of course this is an extreme example, but religion is used to justify great injustice all around the world. Whether or not these people really are following the true word of god is immaterial. The fact a theist belief system is open to such abuse shows the inherent harm it can cause.
b) feed onto their beliefs in God and change their mind on whatever problem they are causing.
Its difficult to persuade someone god thinks in a certain way, when their entire society and hierachy is based on the 'fact' god said things should be the way they are. In addition, it is normally considered heresy in such societies to even challenge the status quo, so no criticism would be made anyway.
If a theist is against homosexuality, who cares?! Most people against homosexuality isn't doing squat to keep gay marriage illegal.
Prop 8? The massive campiagn by mormons previous to the vote to keep gay marriage illegal. I think you underestimate the extent to which religion affects gay rights.
Those who are against gay rights and actually do partake in anti-gay activities can be persuaded that God doesn't hate gays.
Show me some westboro baptists whove changed their minds and i might be inclined to believe you. People who claim that 'god hates f*gs' arent really those most open to reasoning and debate on the issue. If you believe in an absolute truth, there is no debate to be had. Therefore theists win the 'i can oppress minority x, because god says minority x is bad' argument by default. Not something which is healthy for a secular liberal democracy.
A peace of mind is infinitely more valuable than all the knowledge in the world.
''For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. ''
Carl Sagan
Of course this is just the opinion of one man. But i like this idea, and believe it is superior to yours. If all we strive for is comfort, how can progress ever be achieved?
I have to approach this question from a purely philosophical sense. But I think the phrasing and the questions Nemo poses are really for the philosopher to answer. Not the pastor or the rabbi. Not the theist or atheist.
1. If it's a flawed way of thinking, what harm is it causing? A puppy doesn't die each time a person has a flaw in their thinking process.
What is a 'way of thinking'? Is it a process of belief formation? It is a world-view?
To be a proper epistemic agent, we hold ourselves to a standard. We don't generally accept tarot card readings as justified beliefs simply because they don't reliably get us to true beliefs.
And that's essentially what we want - justified true beliefs, i.e., knowledge. We want to avoid flaws in our reasoning and thinking because we want to be good cognizers. If someone uses flawed reasoning, wouldn't we hesitate to believe anything they say?
Now, I'm not saying the theist is flawed in all her reasoning. But to ignore a potential source of false beliefs is not doing your duty as an epistemic agent. Flawed thinking is intrinsically harmful to our web of beliefs and allows for skepticism to take a very firm hold of our situation.
2. Let's say that religion does effect a choice they make. You can either a) tell them God doesn't exist and have them put up more resistance or b) feed onto their beliefs in God and change their mind on whatever problem they are causing.
What kind of a choice are we talking about? There are certain choices that can be motivated by religion, like volunteering at a soup kitchen, that we typically wouldn't fault someone for making. But the point you're trying to make here, while correct, misses the real issue. If we can somehow physically prove that God doesn't exist, then religion can no longer be a justification for any particular decision or belief. At this point, whatever the theist is trying to do doesn't get off the ground because it isn't justified. An analogy here would be that I decide to go pick clovers because I want to feed the unicorns. We know there are no unicorns, so the justification for my actions just doesn't make sense. I am deemed at this point to be irrational.
The crux of this is that, even without God, there are other reasons to do nice things. Of course, there are also other reasons to do bad things, like try to purge an entire group of people. The issue still comes down to what actions are justified, and without God we lose a type of potential justification.
If a theist is against homosexuality, who cares?!
A lot of people do. Now, if it's just their opinion and they don't act on it in any way, then that's one thing. But this simply isn't the case for nearly all people.
Most people against homosexuality isn't doing squat to keep gay marriage illegal.
They are voting. They are protesting. And if they're not protesting, they are lending support (at least in the form of justification) to those that are. If there were just 20 or 30 people protesting something for some asinine reason, we wouldn't acknowledge their claims on any real level. But the religious right has done much to politicize and they are very good at achieving their agenda. It's a grassroots campaign that is meant to appeal to a specific population of Christians.
It's easier to persuade an anti-gay christian that God supports homosexuality than to persuade one that he doesn't exist.
Again, this is ignoring the question at hand. The question is why we should seek to disprove God's existence? Or at the very least we can show the theist's beliefs to be unjustified - the result is epistemically the same.
We're not trying to rationally convince the theist of anything. If we can establish one of the two claims I just mentioned, then either the theist abandons his belief in God or risks being considered irrational.
A similar analogy is the now-extinct belief in spontaneous generation. There was evidence for it and many people believed it, but it turned out to be false. Any decisions or justifications based on this erroneous claim would be irrational (at least after the claim was shown to be false).
Yes, people use Religion to justify their choices. Sometimes they justify good, sometimes they justify bad.
Again, if we show that a concept of God is false or irrational, then any justification thereof would also be irrational. Again, your claim, while correct, is missing the point.
To sum up, we want to know whether or not our beliefs are true. This is one of, if not the, primary goals of responsible cognitive agents. The points you are making describe the world as it is given that we have no proof either way of God's existence. But with proof - either positive or negative - comes another solid cog in our ever-growing web of beliefs.
In either outcome, given the truth (or falsity) of God's existence, other statements will logically or inductively follow. We open an entire world of new beliefs with the verification of just this one belief.
But let's keep in mind the project: to disprove God's existence (according to the OP).
To a philosopher, to prove or disprove something is to do so deductively. Unfortunately, there are two types of statements that cannot logically be proven: negative existential statements (eg., God doesn't exist), and positive universal claims (eg., all ravens are black).
The real project is to show the notion of a western God, as it is currently conceived, is somehow self-contradictory, unjustifiable, irrational, or some combination of these. While the project may never be completed by philosophers, it may be something that society eventually just accepts.
So I just have a question to every one. What is the point in proving god to not exist? What makes it worth while to sit and flip out on people, the goverment, schools, kids, parents.....that they are wrong, and science is wrong?
First off, it is good to know the truth. Second, millions are wasted on churches and church improvements, probably hundreds of dollars for a semi-generous person. Third, religion is used as a government tool to start wars, influence voters, and generally control people.
What he said was basically, if you belive in god, and he is real, you lived a good live, and if you belive in god, and he's not real, you lost nothing, but lived a life of good morals, which I will touch on in a second. However, If he is real, and you didn't beilve you go to hell. And if you didn't beilve and he isn't real, then you lost nothing, other then being remembered as a person who didn't care about morals.\\
You don't need religion to have morals. Do you honestly think that no artiest can have morals, just because he is an atheist? Second, same can be said for you if the Muslim god were real. For that theory to work, we would have to convert to everything, witch in many religions would get you sent to hell anyway. Third, it saves money both from the people and for the church builders.
I would like you to go read the ten commandments, and the other moral wrongs in the bible. How are ANY of them bad?
Your correct! I should go stone my wife right now for having sex before me, like the Bible tells me to!
In reality, it does affect other people. Try telling women in saudi arabia it doesnt matter if the society in which she lives oppresses women to a degree where they can be executed for adultery.
You missed the point completely.
Yes, I understand religion effects almost everything we do. But if it doesn't effect something in a negative way, don't worry about it! That was my point!
You proceeded to give an example of how I was wrong, but that was redundant because I already tackled the issue on point 2. Therefore, what you posted was a fallacy, and had nothing to do with what I said.
2. Let's say that religion does effect a choice they make. You can either a) tell them God doesn't exist and have them put up more resistance
If you claim that god does not exist, you will likely be tortured by the mutawwain.
Actually, you sort of justified what I said...
Your point was that of an extremist group. We are talking about the average theists, the ones who don't go around killing people for their beliefs. Remember, we are talking about atheists trying to convert everyone to theism. There are particular religious groups that should be shut down, but just because there is an extremist group does not mean we must persuade all theists that God isn't real.
b) feed onto their beliefs in God and change their mind on whatever problem they are causing.
Its difficult to persuade someone god thinks in a certain way, when their entire society and hierachy is based on the 'fact' god said things should be the way they are.
True, it is hard, but it isn't nearly as hard as treying to persuade them that God doesn't exist at all.
In addition, it is normally considered heresy in such societies to even challenge the status quo, so no criticism would be made anyway.
I honestly can't argue with this as much as you can't prove this to be true (without using an extremist group). Remember, we are talking about theism in general, not just the extreme groups that you have been using in your examples.
If a theist is against homosexuality, who cares?! Most people against homosexuality isn't doing squat to keep gay marriage illegal.
Prop 8? The massive campiagn by mormons previous to the vote to keep gay marriage illegal. I think you underestimate the extent to which religion affects gay rights.
They would fall into the group of people who do partake in anti-gay activities. Remember, just because there's a huge group doesn't mean it's the majority.
Those who are against gay rights and actually do partake in anti-gay activities can be persuaded that God doesn't hate gays.
Show me some westboro baptists whove changed their minds and i might be inclined to believe you.
Why should I show you an example of an extremist who is stubborn as balls when Christians are accepting gays all the time? Yes, there are Christians who still hate gays, but this proves that it's possible for religion and gay-rights to coexist.
About Westboro, they are severely brain washing their followers. There are two ways to destroy the cult that I can think of.
1. We can use brute force.
2. We can have people understand their way of thinking and become a part of them and fix their way of thinking from the inside out.
Point 2 Is highly unlikely, but if you noticed I didn't even make a point 3, which would have been to persuade them God doesn't exist at all. You just won't be able too.
A peace of mind is infinitely more valuable than all the knowledge in the world.
''For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. ''
Carl Sagan
Of course this is just the opinion of one man. But i like this idea, and believe it is superior to yours. If all we strive for is comfort, how can progress ever be achieved?
Trust me, theists progress all the time.
And oddly enough...
You challenged my view, which was to allow theists to worship their Gods. The thing is, you did nothing to back up atheists and their reasoning to persuade people of God's nonexistence.
If you proved anything at all, it's that trying to convert theists into atheists is just as pointless as trying to change the way they follow their beliefs.
But if it doesn't effect something in a negative way, don't worry about it!
But atheists dont worry about it. The only form by which atheists attempt to convert or complain about theists is on internet forums like this. Atheists dont exactly go round knocking on doors with blank pamphlets.
Your point was that of an extremist group. We are talking about the average theists, the ones who don't go around killing people for their beliefs.
These arent extremist groups. In the vast majority of islamic countries (the 2nd largest religion), theocracy is the political structure. In these countries these are the objective laws and realities of everyday life. Even outside of the middle east, in many parts of africa the form of christinity there is essentially no different from the voodoo they used to officially believe in, and they justify horrific practices. My point is that average theists outside of the developed world often are very dogmatic and very dangerous.
There are particular religious groups that should be shut down, but just because there is an extremist group does not mean we must persuade all theists that God isn't real.
So youre arguing some forms of thiesm are unnaceptable, but others are? Where do you draw the line for the purposes of the discussion?
Also im not arguing theists should be persuaded otherwise, but im pointing out that theism does seem to be inherently harmful to many people.
Remember, just because there's a huge group doesn't mean it's the majority.
Them being the majority is neither here nor there. The fact they can influence objective law for all citizens, including atheists, is proof of how theists have a large amount of power, and goes very far to answering why atheists seek to disprove god. If someone told you your way of life was disgusting, and you asked them why, and the answer you receive was because god said so, would you not want to persuade them that their god was false?
Why should I show you an example of an extremist who is stubborn as balls when Christians are accepting gays all the time?
Because those arent the christians who matter to your argument. You are wondering why atheists try and disprove god. Its because god is a basis for many vocal and influential extremist groups. They may not be the majority, but they still have a profound effect on society, which is why it is bothersome. If all you want to know is 'why do atheists seek to convert moderate christians', well, this just doesnt happen in real life. Ive never heard of any sort of atheistic conversion organisation, much less one that targets non fundamental christians.
You challenged my view, which was to allow theists to worship their Gods.
Where did i claim theists shouldnt have the right to worship? I was merely truing to point out that it is unsurprising many atheists are uncomfortable with theism, because it affects their lives in such a big way.
I'm going to have to simplify my answer. Moe, I believe we are speaking from two different levels. If I'm correct, how one comes to a conclusion is quite important to you. For me, my focus is the conclusion.
I would like to explain my position, rather than make a rebuttal.
My field of desired study will be psychology. I have done my research, but I am not a professional by any means.
It is human nature to want to believe in something spiritual. It is human nature to fill in the gaps of how things work. Atheists and theists fill in those gaps differently.
What goes on in our minds effect only our own actions, and it is our actions that effect others. My goal is not to fix the minds of people so that they may think more logically, but to bend their minds so that they may act out differently, preferably in a way that satisfies the people around that person.
If the problem is that people are unhappy because they want gay-rights, then my goal is to fix that problem. I have two options, either allow the gays to be happy without gay rights, or to persuade everyone else that homosexuals deserve gay rights. Because of my own belief system, I would persuade everyone to accept gay-rights. From there, I must determine how I get what I want. I can either challenge them and prove to them that God isn't real, or I can use what they believe for my own advantage. The second generally works better than the first.
Will the world be better off without religion? Maybe. I know there would still be crimes and wars, but maybe things will still be better.
Moe, I believe we are at two different levels, and before we get further into anything else, I think it would be best to understand each others position before we continue.
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