Forums → WEPR → Theism and Atheism

@Jefferysinspiration read avorne's above post. That is why I despise what you believe. I despise everything he writes in that post. You are the kind of christian he reflects on, the one in the shade who just watches him walk by. I am the kind that stops him and tries to save him.

Funny I was thinking we should have more Christians like her. There would likely be far less issue with the religion with such methods.

Funny I was thinking we should have more Christians like her. There would likely be far less issue with the religion with such methods.

Well of corse you do. Isn't that what I said? That she is what you believe to be a good christian? You are beyond hope of being saved. So drowned in evidence, you cannot even see outside of your pool of thought anymore.

The good Samaritan - Not all non-believers are bad people.
You should really fine tune your preaching by reading the bible cover to cover.

Why are you under the impression that I think atheists are bad people? I think they are quite capable of being good people. Just that if they do not see the way before they die, they will spend eternity in hell. And you also assume I haven't read the bible. Wasn't it you just mocking me for making assumptions about you?

I will admit, some of my assumptions were wrong. But you do refuse to tell me exactly what it is you believe, or even name a specific form of church so I can just read up on that. I'm Protestant, and I know what I am talking about, if that answers any questions.

@HaihHa We can already witness what is right and wrong.

We can't objectively know in the case of religions, since it is about belief, which is what you have kept telling me before.

Christians aren't going to come out of the Chapel and say "We were wrong", if that is what you desire.

That's not what I desire, I just don't want that everyones life is ruled by what some people believe in. I try to learn about the world and share my knowledge, and discuss about it.

We are subjected to sin our entire lives. We have the ability to chose to embrace it, or repent from it. That is our free will.

Yeah, like that makes me want to become christian..
You know, before I can acknowledge any of this sin and morals and all the rest of christianity, I need one thing first, probably the most important thing. Faith. If I don't have faith in god, all the rest is senseless. And I refuse to be told by humans what faith I should have, I must experience it myself; what would be the purpose of being christian if I lack faith, if I lack of a relationship with god? So you tell me to have faith in your god, and I look out for that relationship to see if I can have faith in it. I really am willing to look for it open-mindedly, but as long as I haven't found anything, there is no reason to abandon what I have learnt so far. Even you have to agree that this would be silly.

Funny I was thinking we should have more Christians like her. There would likely be far less issue with the religion with such methods.

True. Her way is a lot nicer, more accepting. I don't think God would just send non-chistians to hell. There are plenty of nice wonderful non-christians in the world who should go to heaven, it doesn't make any sense for them to be shunned by God.

-whispers- i'm female :P

Oh... lol Sorry I didn't mean to do that :O

One of my reasons is hope, yes. I find comfort in religion. It's what i have been brought up with, but i don't believe indoctrination as i didn't start believing until i was 16 & even at that wasn't a great Christian. A few things happened before my 18th birthday and i "found god" i guess you can say.

Glad to know you wasn't directly brought up into Christianity. Your lifestyle with Christianity I actually quite like - I wouldn't do it, but there is no bad in it if you ask me.

I've always maintained a "Christian" lifestyle, but never believed it to be a Christian lifestyle - i've always lived morally good i guess.

I wouldn't call it Christian seeing as how I developed moral characteristics from Fable I :P For you it could be considered Christian but I would just like to ask for clarification

Yet again, all depends on your beliefs which are personal.

You're beginning to lose me a bit here - do you believe he is actively changing things ?

But first consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.

It's this idea that you are "defending" your self via your beliefs, it activates what would be used to defend yourself in dangerous situations making you irrational and stubborn - I am well aware of this thanks, but please remember that opposition =/= closed-mindedness or a compromised mindset.

Before you look at the facts surrounding God's existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know him?

Sadly no, the morality behind God is bad if you ask me, I don't see why I would put him on such a high pinnacle of value when I barely know him. To me power only matters if you use it correctly, and even so, it doesn't make you any better than someone with less power but the same intent.

1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

Why so complex however? Would gold be a requirement in the world if God just wished us to live happy? We have food, we have wood and we have air - isn't that all we really need?

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

There are billions of stars in each galaxy, and billions of galaxies, it isn't really surprising to me that one of them had the capability to create life - furthermore, the Drake Equation states that there is a possible 10,000 other planets with life on it in our galaxy alone if I'm correct.

Europa, a moon of Jupiter may sustain life, it is effectively a giant iceball but beneath there may be water, do we know if there's life there? No, but I bet there's people willing to find out.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

Another point I'm going to make. We are of THIS planet. If we were to look from the vision of another planet that possibly sustained lifeforms capable of surviving in very different conditions then wouldn't we look at it, as if it were worthless or even if we were ones who required water etc, it would be a masterpiece. Being a masterpiece there would be life on it, it's quite easy to take it for granted, even given the thousands of stars we can see.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

What really can I say? The chances are small but the amount of planets is massive and being part of this very convenient planet it could look miraculous - I highly doubt so though.

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

Life on EARTH, that is, whom's to say other lifeforms can't sustain themselves without water?
I wouldn't say it's impossible.
Like a robot, in a way, it doesn't need water, it needs electricity - of course it lacks sentience but nonetheless a sub-valid point to add onto a valid argument.

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

We generate our own warmth, I wouldn't say water does anything for us temp. wise - at least when it's in our bodies, if it's warm and we consume it well... of course it helps.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

Global solvent - that, and they're fine nutrients / chemicals / minerals we consume, life on another planet may not need something so rawly powerful.

I think water was required to make life on our planet in the first place but, that is limited to us at least and it could be something else on another planet able to do the same using different materials. Do I know? Of course not, but I won't rule out the possibility the same way I don't rule out the possibility of there actually being a God, there's not real reason for me to believe there is one but I'm always going to be open.

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

I looks as if you're trying to make water a creation of God - which is what you're doing, I think, but realize how bland water is. That's why it's effective, it doesn't take a genius to see that it was not effort into making this amazing, it was the lack of change within the object (water) itself.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Unique surface tension is unique, obvious to say but nonetheless my points still stand.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Unique surface tension + how liquids work, it's the same thing as before really.
Also, given evolution I wouldn't be surprised that fish live and survive. :P

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6

Admittedly I found it strange how clouds were formed without there being 100 degrees celsius of heat. What really can I say against it other than the laws of physics which is ultimately what this is?

I have to go, but I will reply to the rest tomorrow I hope - it depends how many pages more there are on this thread, it grows very fast.

- H

Yeah, like that makes me want to become christian..
You know, before I can acknowledge any of this sin and morals and all the rest of christianity, I need one thing first, probably the most important thing. Faith. If I don't have faith in god, all the rest is senseless. And I refuse to be told by humans what faith I should have, I must experience it myself; what would be the purpose of being christian if I lack faith, if I lack of a relationship with god? So you tell me to have faith in your god, and I look out for that relationship to see if I can have faith in it. I really am willing to look for it open-mindedly, but as long as I haven't found anything, there is no reason to abandon what I have learnt so far. Even you have to agree that this would be silly.

So the best alternative you can think of is evolution, the work of Man not even claiming to have a God. It would be a silly thing to do, I agree. But you only have until the end of your life to find him. Or find whoever you believe is correct. And since you don't know the day you die, you better get on it, and study up on religion, so that you might make a better choice in the future.

But you do refuse to tell me exactly what it is you believe, or even name a specific form of church so I can just read up on that. I'm Protestant, and I know what I am talking about, if that answers any questions.

You're clearly too arrogant to bother reading posts a quite a while ago i posted:

My beliefs - I believe that the Bible documents things relating to God. It also gives us an insight into history and society of the time. I believe God's authority was given to the world though Jesus who then passed this authority to the Apostles. We find God's authority through the Pope, Bishops, Priests. & Of course the Bible. I believe in "One, holy Catholic and apostolic church." i believe God created this world. I believe (obviously) in Jesus, morality, the sacraments, sin and the virgin Mary.

So how do i refuse to tell you my beliefs or mention my church. Considering i stated it? It doesn't matter if you're Catholic and i'm protestant: Church organization is different, belief is not.

You're clearly too arrogant to bother reading posts a quite a while ago i posted:

I have only been reading since page 188. If it fell before that, sorry. Not going to bother. Especially for someone who insults me with the same words I asked him not to.

So how do i refuse to tell you my beliefs or mention my church. Considering i stated it? It doesn't matter if you're Catholic and i'm protestant: Church organization is different, belief is not.

But you tell me to respect their beliefs, even when our believes do them to eternal torture? Isn't that a tad selfish?

I have only been reading since page 188. If it fell before that, sorry. Not going to bother. Especially for someone who insults me with the same words I asked him not to.

It was two pages ago, in reply to you.

But you tell me to respect their beliefs, even when our believes do them to eternal torture? Isn't that a tad selfish?

Respect, not accept - God gave us free will. It is their choice. We can educate them, but we cannot hate them or forcefully make them believe.

So drowned in evidence, you cannot even see outside of your pool of thought anymore.

Are you seriously saying the use of reason and evidence is a bad thing?

Especially for someone who insults me with the same words I asked him not to.

You insult me by trying to prove i am ignorant to my own faith which i'm doing a degree in. & by judging me and not realizing that i am entitled to an opinion of my own.

Also, i'm female.

Respect, not accept - God gave us free will. It is their choice. We can educate them, but we cannot hate them or forcefully make them believe.

I don't accept to believe them. But you are not actively arguing the point that god exists with them. You just explain that you found a comfortable zone in which to believe. So we should just give up if they don't believe at first?

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

[quote]So drowned in evidence, you cannot even see outside of your pool of thought anymore.

Are you seriously saying the use of reason and evidence is a bad thing?[/quote]

It obviously is. Do you see good in the world anymore? Must everything have an explantation so you can be content with your beliefs? A scientific approach to everything does not call for any love. And you seem to be constant in assuming the roll of an inhuman information bank.

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1 John 4:8

I don't accept to believe them. But you are not actively arguing the point that god exists with them. You just explain that you found a comfortable zone in which to believe. So we should just give up if they don't believe at first?

Not accept to believe them - i never even mentioned that. I said respect their opinions, for when we are judged, whoever is rght will be right and saved. Try not to twist words, thank you.
I did actively argue my reasoning for why i believe in god: Mage and Avorne could tell you this - they simply didn't find it to hold enough evidence: which is doesn't, because we don't have evidence, we have faith. That is enough for us, not enough for others.

We shouldn't give up, but i don't believe i've ever studied a passage in the bible saying "Actively go on to the internet young disciples and shove your beliefs down the throats of non-believers."

You're not going to convert the world shift, you're only 15.
I respect that your belief is so strong, but having a strong belief does not mean attacking every single person who has an opinion or belief that's different from yours.

All i can see in your posts is you choosing to ignore something said to you that either you don't have an answer to or son't want to answer. I also see you picking apart any tiny thing another Christian says which looks (not saying it is) but what looks like you trying to prove you're a better Christian.

The point is we believe in the same thing, but i can accept the fact society has had an increase in non believers.

We can share our knowledge and experience with them, but we should also listen to their side of the story.

And since you don't know the day you die, you better get on it, and study up on religion, so that you might make a better choice in the future.

Seriously, stop contradicting yourself. Do we have a choice now or not? :P
Back to serious; like I told you, I cannot study religion before I know whether he exists or not; religion is no proof of his existence. The only proof of gods existence ever possible, is his existence itself. So I have to find out about that first.

Just a little comment on your definition of evolution: it is not the work of anyone, it is a process we didn't invent, simply observe, indirectly as well as directly. As a natural process, it is a process of the world supposedly created by god. Therefore, if you assume god exists, evolution was part of his creation.