Forums → WEPR → You support Israel? I DO
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I just feel the morals and ethics of the middle east aren't right compared to any western country.
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So what is a legit way to be called a "country" WHat a country need to become real? just be there? surviving the 20 centurey when conquering and seperating became ilegal and just, well, exist?
I would say yes. Since moral standards change as time passes by, I do not believe we should hold ourselves to the morality of past ages. Land grabbing is no longer a viable way to start a country. Then again, it would be possible to say that alot of nations that started off in the 20th century are illegal, and simply just cutting up of maps by colonizing powers. It is an argument that can go both ways.
However what is clearly illegal would be the Israeli settlements built on land that was partitioned for Palestine.
Stopped by, couldn't overlook this. You've got some facts wrong and I blame CNN or whatever your watching
such as most of Israelis are scholars, which i seriously doubt; nevertheless that is not in the scope of the discussion isn't it?
Not sure where u got this from but I guess the base for the rumor is the cheap education here. Not much private schools and cheap universities, about 5-10 times cheaper then they are in US.
You don't help your arab neighbours when they are in turmoil ( currently, your Syrian neighbour is pretty troubled), or some countries around the world as well ( do you help the countries afflicted by the 2004 tsunami anyway?)
Syrian wounded moderate rebels and civilians where and are still taken in for treatment, that's as far as you go when you stay neutral.
2004 tsunami aid was offered but not accepted.
Hmmmm..... the neighbouring arabian countries at some point controlled the Gaza and the surrounding lands we now call as "Israel". So, i seriously doubt that your lands are yours to begin with. But, i also doubted that the lands on Israel are "theirs" to begin with. Even the roman empire controlled Israel at some point, so if we use this line of reasoning, then Israel should be controlled by Italians, which is pretty far-fetched and obviously wrong.
The neighbors control about 40%+ of what is today controlled by Israel.
As for Romans, they occupied this place like they did many others, they didn't settle it. At some point they exiled and massacred the majority if the Jews after a failed uprising, that's how Jews stopped being a majority here. In Jerusalem for example, there was still a Jewish majority from the earliest recordings of the Ottoman empire.
Personally, i support the existence of your country. i don't support your palestine excursion campaign though, and i certainly do not support the blockade of the Gazan palestine terries
I'm glad to hear that. Just be careful where you get some facts from. I also don't like how the West bank is dealt with but the reality is far from what most western media makes it look like on TV.
About Gaza, what about the blockade? Better they arm up freely?
Peoples assume that there is an full scale ongoing war here in Israel. Its driving me mad.
Whenever you read in the news that "A palestinian was killed by the IDF", its not a general saying like "100 peopels died this week in Syria", from which you assume that 1000 more died in that month, But actualy saying that this spesific death as happened. More peoples die from being stunged by a bee than by clashes between rioteers and police/army here in Israel.
@Kennethhartanto I dont want to sound threatening or something, but i need you to explaine me something - Do you call me stuiped or a lier? Because thats what you show me that you think about me with that comment. I am from Israel, so when i say that we dont have laws against other religions/sex oriantations/etc. , i dont make up facts. Its what actuay going on. So please tell me, what did you meant?
Whenever you read in the news that "A palestinian was killed by the IDF", its not a general saying like "100 peopels died this week in Syria", from which you assume that 1000 more died in that month, But actualy saying that this spesific death as happened. More peoples die from being stunged by a bee than by clashes between rioteers and police/army here in Israel.
That's not a valid justification that is isn't something to worry about. Having just one innocent Palestinian civilian killed a week is already one too many. Just because the scale of the tragedy isn't that enormous, doesn't reduce its woe.
It does mean too much attention is given unevenly by international organisations and certain medias. That makes people feel stronger about the Israel Issue and less about other issues (like Syria before ISIS). Comes to show how interests work, more strong people want you to focus attention and boycotts on Israel then on other places, regardless of the real damages done in numbers or whats right or wrong.
Its also much more then 100 a week.
Well, considering the Holocaust and what happened to the Jews, I support them too, but I feel that their PM is a bit aggressive.
(I can't believe I haven't visited the WEPR in three months!)
Honestly there are pros and cons to every situation. Those of Jewish religious backgrounds were given a plot of land on the eastern coast of the Mediterranean, where historically (e.g. in the Bible) they had settled for a few hundred years. This of course displaced the current residents which, arguably, could have been avoided by just building them new houses and reshuffling the government. But that, of course, would have presented its own set of issues. I think what people need to understand that there will always be a winner and a loser. And in human conflicts, both are usually human. We humans are like crabs in a bucket; once one almost gets to the top, we like to pull them back down. This is an issue that has been going on since prehistoric times. It always happens, and we must accept that it will continue to happen so long as our current society supports that cycle. Little can be done for the situation in the middle east, besides mutual reparations for damages. Peace cannot be achieved until A) One clear superior power is established and acknowledged by everyone else, or B) the world alligns in a complete equilibrium of power. As neither of those things is going to happen in the near future, or without global loss of human life, it is our lot to try to minimize the damage caused by conflicts.
In my opinion the Palestinians were wronged by the British, not the Israelis. However, their violent response was not warranted by the situation. It's really just a bad circumstance all over the world right now, and there is no right or wrong side. It's just about how we react to the hand we are dealt.
Nicely said but Jewish ancient history here lasted a bit longer then a thousand years before the Roman exile. As for the 'A', 'B' options, were kinda on the A for a long time but Palestinians, like their Arab neighbors, don't like to accept they lost and therefore lose something so they keep fighting wars they can't win. In many terms they just do it for internal reasons to keep their folks satisfied. Does Hamas still think he can take out Israel? Probably not but he tries to nevertheless.
And I agree on the British thing, the damage they did is usually forgotten.
I dont want to sound threatening or something, but i need you to explaine me something - Do you call me stuiped or a lier? Because thats what you show me that you think about me with that comment. I am from Israel, so when i say that we dont have laws against other religions/sex oriantations/etc. , i dont make up facts. Its what actuay going on. So please tell me, what did you meant?
Neither dude, i know that there is a very high chance that what you say is true. What i do mean, is that the facts you have given cannot justify your comment that your country is not fundamentalist, because there is no clear connection to what you said to justify the outcome and the proposed outcome. at least, i cannot see the imaginary thin thread stretching to connect both of them.
Not sure where u got this from but I guess the base for the rumor is the cheap education here. Not much private schools and cheap universities, about 5-10 times cheaper then they are in US.
hmmm...... at the time i posted my last comment, i was reasoning that there should be more soldiers than scholars in Israel, since i heard that most the land is still practically cloaked with small arms fire, but now, i don't know how to justify that. maybe i was wrong after all. If i was wrong, then just disregard that part
About Gaza, what about the blockade? Better they arm up freely?
Israel is blockading everything that comes to Gaza. Do you really believe that the Gazan people don't need provisions to survive? Also, by blockading that part, Israel will only increase the Gaza Palestinian's hatred towards Israel. now who's the one provoking them into battles?
Israel is blockading everything that comes to Gaza. Do you really believe that the Gazan people don't need provisions to survive? Also, by blockading that part, Israel will only increase the Gaza Palestinian's hatred towards Israel. now who's the one provoking them into battles?
If that was so I would be surprised if they wouldn't be all dead after so many years...
Its not a siege, food and supplies are let inside after being checked. Duel use stuff like concrete, fireworks and anything else that can turn into a weapon are let inside only if they are requested in a certain amount by humanitarian organisations.
What they want is the stuff they aren't allowed to get.
Don't be fooled, its common for Western guys not to know this because some medias always 'forget' to mention this when they talk about the blockade (not siege). The new understanding is that the PA (moderate Palestinians) will do the checking but their new plans to unite with Hamas will probably stop that from happening.
its common for Western guys not to know this because some medias always 'forget' to mention this when they talk about the blockade (not siege)
Ok then, prove it. show me that you are right and the rest of the world's medias are wrong ( except Israel's ). A lot ( not some ) of medias portrayed your blockade as a form of "siege".
Jerusalem (CNN) -- Israel announced Monday that it will continue to restrict construction materials allowed into Gaza, but will allow other items to be brought into Gaza without specific permission.
The Israeli Security Cabinet last month voted to ease the blockade of goods into Gaza, which is ruled by Hamas. The decision followed a widely condemned incident in which Israeli soldiers stormed a humanitarian flotilla trying to break Israel's blockade of Gaza.
Israel unveiled two categories of materials that will remain under restrictions. The first category includes materials that could be used for bombs or other weapons, including certain fertilizers, ball bearings, lathes and their parts, hunting knives, machetes, and night vision goggles.
The second list includes construction materials that will only be allowed to enter Gaza for some Palestinian Authority-authorized projects.
"While such items are liable to be used for Hamas military purposes (building bunkers, fortifying positions and digging tunnels) Israel will permit their entry into Gaza so as to facilitate construction projects in Gaza -- authorized by the PA and implemented and monitored by the international community," the Israeli government said in a statement.
2010
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/07/05/israel.gaza/
And again I raise the logic, if nothing would be let inside how would millions of people stay alive for years?
Also, guess who supplies them electricity?
@Kennethhartanto You said Israel is fundomental. Last time i checked, Fundomental mean extra religious. And last time i checked, Jewish {and Christian} Fundomentalist tend to be homopohobic, not scholar, and so on. So as i said that most peoples are not, Mean that we are not. Easy as that.
You also mention the
"most the land is still practically cloaked with small arms fire. If you belive that this is true, than it show your knowledge about the region. We are not in a total war you know.
Peopels like you tend to picture Israel as if we are in the middle of a WW2 berlin, fighting in the streets, while settlers ride their trucks and shoot arabic kids with their shotguns in 'drive-by', palestinains in consetrations camp and so on. And then you blame us based on things you imagiane will happene in this scenario. Israel is not cloacked with fire arms. We do not starve to death the palestinians. We do not execute peopels, nor send poepels to Siberia. Your whole picture of Israel is based on random articals from the Media, which you assume that happen daily. Once in a while there is a clash between bored arab youth and the police, and you belive it happen daily. When was the last time you saw an artical that said "Hamas shot a rocket into Israel"? NEVER. Its always shown like this: "Israel and Hamas exchange fire". Hizbhulla injured 2 Israeli soliders in the northen border today, by placing pipe bombs near the border. Did you knew that? No. But when Israel will retaliate, you will cry "Now you attack Lebanon too!". The western media is so obseesed with "showing both side" that you belive that this is a war we both want. but its not. Most arab peopels dont want war, and the entire Israel dosent. Only a bunch of crazy zealots from the arabic side try to heat the surface again and again.
The tactic of these terror organization is clear: They "annoy" us with fire rockets, so Israel will attack back and kill civilians as colesteral damage {as they hide in urban areas}. then the world cry for us to stop. You dont think they try to beat us in frontal fight arent you?
And for last, What you suggest Israel to do about Gaza? let them go? Set them free to do whatever they want? Will you vulenteer to come over and fight Hamas if they begin to attack us again? Are you THAT Naive? What you think will happen? Hamas say "thank you, sorry for the last wars, here is our wepones"? What will hsppen if we will let them travel into Israel without regolation, Let them bring anything into Gaza without checking what inside, and let them build whatever they want, let it be a house or a bunker?
and of course is palestina not only the good boys, but what do you expect? after being grown up in a heavy conflict zone? they have to fight. if they dont they will be forgotten soon enoufg. like barely anybody still knows what is going on in tibet... peacefull demonstrations only is not enough to get what belongs to you.
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