Forums → WEPR → You support Israel? I DO
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I just feel the morals and ethics of the middle east aren't right compared to any western country.
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Most arab peopels dont want war, and the entire Israel dosent. Only a bunch of crazy zealots from the arabic side try to heat the surface again and again.
I used to think that's true. The part about the Arabs. I'm not so sure anymore, at least not in some places.
peacefull demonstrations only is not enough to get what belongs to you.
That's a dangerous thought. If every ethnicy or group would adopt this logic we would never see peace again.
But don't think they didn't have chances to end it peacefully, here's the first one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
Guess who wanted all or nothing way from the start.
That's a dangerous thought. If every ethnicy or group would adopt this logic we would never see peace again.
its a fact. tibet is the very symbol of peacefully demonstrating against its oppressor china for decades already. and not a single country in the world gives a danm anymore. but if the people in some random other country start to use violence, and their oppressor reacts on it. then it is world news and a half year later their is either a new gov. forced by international politics or a war.
so yea, we spread the word of peacefull demonstrations as if they work. and its great when they work. but if it doesn't... fight for your rights, or you will be forgotten.
Its right in some cases, if reaching the goal is so important to you that you are willing to fight for as long as it takes. That's why independence fighters usually get what they want eventually, even if it takes years. After all, the independence fighter wants his land more then the occupier wants it.
But this isn't a classic occupier - occupied nation case like China and Tibet or USA with Iraq. So for our case I will ask you what if the other guy thinks exactly the same? What if he wants it at least as bad as you do if not more? In this case will this logic get anyone anywhere?
Following this, the only way out of that is a general massacre. Good thing at least one side has this plan up his sleeve...
this isn't a classic occupier - occupied nation case like China and Tibet or USA with Iraq.
china - tibet & usa - iraq are VERY different from each other...
usa did not take away the culture of iraq, neither did usa randomly kill and torture people. the usa did not jail the entire family of peacefull demonstraters without any form a of court case. the demonstraters themself have never been seen back again... the usa did not keep the citizens from doing their prayers or ban any form of music and entertainment. the usa had the intention to give the land back to its original owners eventually. china does not... look @ any world map made after 1951. where is tibet? tibet =/= china... (iraq did never vanish from the world map )
china - tibet is much more like israel - palestine. where israel is china and palestine is tibet. with the big difference that hamas fights back and tibet doesn't... if hamas didn't fight back, israel toke over and we all would have forgotten about the occupation of palestine.
In this case will this logic get anyone anywhere?
personally i have given up complete hope for that area for years already. in a 100 year they will still be fighting. israel got the support of most countries (unrightfully). so they are stuck there untill the rest of the world comes to senses, and that wont happen. we got a other bounce of people sitting right next too it who have to full right over the land and are willing to fight for it. they could stop fighting. but as i said above that would mean the end of their country and culture. and if israel wins this, then it would mean that justice lost.
Good thing at least one side has this plan up his sleeve...
china and israel i guess?
usa did not take away the culture of iraq, neither did usa randomly kill and torture people. the usa did not jail the entire family of peacefull demonstraters without any form a of court case. the demonstraters themself have never been seen back again... the usa did not keep the citizens from doing their prayers or ban any form of music and entertainment. the usa had the intention to give the land back to its original owners eventually.
You realize a lot of people disagree with most of this?
china - tibet is much more like israel - palestine. where israel is china and palestine is tibet. with the big difference that hamas fights back and tibet doesn't... if hamas didn't fight back, israel toke over and we all would have forgotten about the occupation of palestine.
Explain how Israel would have 'taken over'. While you're at it please add these territories in you're explanation.
UN plan refused by Palestinian Arabs and the Israeli boarders between 1949-1967.
that would mean the end of their country and culture.
Country maybe, but culture? Common, look into how modern Arab boarders were formed.
Good thing at least one side has this plan up his sleeve...
china and israel i guess?
Massacre of the Israeli Jews, "ushing them to the sea" or "yitbah el yahod"
You realize a lot of people disagree with most of this?
Yea i know, i'm not here to feel popular. I just state my opinions.
But have you ever seen any leaked news from Tibet?
I guess not. Because if you had, you wouldn't be comparing them.
As many here already know. I'm no friend of the usa. I do not agree with all their senseless wars. And hate the arrogantcy of how they present themselves. Yet i say that the usa went soft on iraq if you compare them with chinas torture of Tibet. I think that tells enough for those that know my stand against the usa.
Explain how Israel would have 'taken over'
The common representation of Israelâs birth is that the UN created Israel, that the world was in favor of this move, and that the US governmental establishment supported it. All these assumptions are demonstrably incorrect.
In reality, while the UN General Assembly recommended the creation of a Jewish state in part of Palestine, that recommendation was non-binding and never implemented by the Security Council.
Second, the General Assembly passed that recommendation only after Israel proponents threatened and bribed numerous countries in order to gain a required two-thirds of votes.
Third, the US administration supported the recommendation out of domestic electoral considerations, and took this position over the strenuous objections of the State Department, the CIA, and the Pentagon.
The passage of the General Assembly recommendation sparked increased violence in the region. Over the following months the armed wing of the pro-Israel movement, which had long been preparing for war, perpetrated a series of massacres and expulsions throughout Palestine, implementing a plan to clear the way for a majority-Jewish state.
It was this armed aggression, and the ethnic cleansing of at least three-quarters of a million indigenous Palestinians, that created the Jewish state on land that had been 95 percent non-Jewish prior to Zionist immigration and that even after years of immigration remained 70 percent non-Jewish. And despite the shallow patina of legality its partisans extracted from the General Assembly, Israel was born over the opposition of American experts and of governments around the world, who opposed it on both pragmatic and moral grounds.
=================
around 1900 When a movement called political Zionism had begun in Europe. Its intention was to create a Jewish state in Palestine through pushing out the Christian and Muslim inhabitants who made up over 95 percent of its population and replacing them with Jewish immigrants.
As this colonial project grew through subsequent years, the indigenous Palestinians reacted with occasional bouts of violence; Zionists had anticipated this since people usually resist being expelled from their land. In various written documents cited by numerous Palestinian and Israeli historians, they discussed their strategy: they would buy up the land until all the previous inhabitants had emigrated, or, failing this, use violence to force them out.
When the buy-out effort was able to obtain only a few percent of the land, Zionists created a number of terrorist groups to fight against both the Palestinians and the British. Terrorist and future Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin later bragged that Zionists had brought terrorism both to the Middle East and to the world at large.
Finally, in 1947 the British announced that they would be ending their control of Palestine, which had been created through the League of Nations following World War One, and turned the question of Palestine over to the United Nations.
At this time, the Zionist immigration and buyout project had increased the Jewish population of Palestine to 30 percent and land ownership from 1 percent to approximately 6 percent.
Since a founding principle of the UN was âself-determination of peoples,â one would have expected to the UN to support fair, democratic elections in which inhabitants could create their own independent country.
Instead, Zionists pushed for a General Assembly resolution in which they would be given a disproportionate 55 percent of Palestine. (While they rarely announced this publicly, their stated plan was to later take the rest of Palestine.)
(The story doesn't start in 1949..)
but culture?
Yes every country has its ow culture, its own holidays and its own way of handling things. Palestine is no different. Plz. dont confuse a local culture with a mass culture. (i.e. usa culture =/= texas culture)
Yea i know, i'm not here to feel popular. I just state my opinions.
But have you ever seen any leaked news from Tibet?
I guess not. Because if you had, you wouldn't be comparing them.
As many here already know. I'm no friend of the usa. I do not agree with all their senseless wars. And hate the arrogantcy of how they present themselves. Yet i say that the usa went soft on iraq if you compare them with chinas torture of Tibet. I think that tells enough for those that know my stand against the usa.
All im saying is don't look anything as fact. Especially something like this that's already controversial.
The common representation of Israel���â�ï�ÿ�ý�ï�ÿ�ýs birth is that the UN created Israel, that the world was in favor of this move, and that the US governmental establishment supported it. All these assumptions are demonstrably incorrect.
True
In reality, while the UN General Assembly recommended the creation of a Jewish state in part of Palestine, that recommendation was non-binding and never implemented by the Security Council.
Of course its not binding, who would enforce it and why on non member states? It was the first link I send - a sort of 50%-50% division.
What I was hoping for was that you go over is who accepted the UN offer and who didn't. That is in fact how the real war started you know.
-Which brings up the question, when someone gambles all or nothing can they really raise the moral card if they got nothing?
Second, the General Assembly passed that recommendation only after Israel proponents threatened and bribed numerous countries in order to gain a required two-thirds of votes.Third, the US administration supported the recommendation out of domestic electoral considerations, and took this position over the strenuous objections of the State Department, the CIA, and the Pentagon.
Don't be naive, everyone works by interests and only by moral when it suits the country/ country's politicians. If you look closer at the facts you stated though, you will find something you might not have expected to see. It was only somewhere in the 50's after Israel sent aid to S. Korea when Israel really sided the West in the cold war. Until then Israel was mostly backed by the Eastern block while Arabs where backed by the West. The USSR saw Israel as a big potential for a socialist state and wanted to cut the West power in Africa from Asia.
Bribes and threats go all ways, the Arabs had their try and succeed in several cases.
Other then that, in a world that just passed the holocaust it wasn't hard to convince nations to support Israel's foundation, I don't see why you insist it as bribes and corruption that forced politician hands. If so, apparently people of the time didn't take the holocaust as cold as you do.
For the war readiness, skirmishes where going on all around before the UN proposal, like you later stated. Arabs not being prepared doesn't give them more moral ground. And the war didn't start with a Zionist offensive, almost the other way around. The Zionist offensive started only midwar after continued raids from Arab villages on Jewish villages, cities and roads. Most Jewish villages where under complete Siege (food,water,etc) until rescued by offensives.
That's also how most Arab villages where forced out, so they don't raid supply roads and nearby villages. They weren't massacred though. In fact there where few cases of mass massacres in the entire war from all sides, thank god the Arabs didn't get much chance to do it.
For all the rest, try to stick with a few subjects. You don't want your next post to be 10 pages long do you? Well i dont
Overall, in any conflict both sides lose and have stuff at stake but I get the impression you look only at the Arab side so no wonder you support them! Do you know why Zionists came in the first place? It wasn't for money or colonial landgrab, its more complicated then that and its the basics for understanding this conflict no matter what side you take.
For all the rest, try to stick with a few subjects. You don't want your next post to be 10 pages long do you? Well i dont
it takes longer to write then to read.. got problems reading the truth? cause you skipped the whole part befor 1949.
What I was hoping for was that you go over is who accepted the UN offer and who didn't. That is in fact how the real war started you know.
i know you hoped for that cause pro-israel people like to forget why all those jews are there in the 1st place. the war didn't start when you think it started. it started when the jews from far away decided they wanted their own land on that ground.. befor that it was a peacefull region.
it's kinda like the lord of the rings.. you jump in halfway the story and tell everyone it is the begin. while it actually starts earlier with the hobbit.
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it takes longer to write then to read.. got problems reading the truth? cause you skipped the whole part befor 1949
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Did you really just say that?
You continue to evade my subjects like the Arab refusal to co-exist, the all or nothing wars they wage, the reasons for the creation of zionism and overlook simple facts like the arab side of the demographic growth from 1900 or the raids,murders and terrorism done on the arab side up to 1949.
Writing a 2 page long reply is as far as im going to go, especially when my subjects are not answered. But I have read your post, i do owe you that much.
The absulute foult you find in Israel is impossible in any scenerio, there are always two sides. Its not wrong to chose one side over the other, but if your going to be pationat about it at east look up the basics. Man like you, blind to the other side's motives, are what run wars - the ultimate failure of mankind to resulve issues. Both lose, one more then the other. Not to mention your noted lack of understanding in the damages done by hatered and violance. Have you ever seen a war upclose before preaching how its the only option? All this not to mention your lack of knowlege of the Arab claim shown by your claim for the destruction of their culture.
You obvioustly recieved your information from an extreme source and built up an extreme and pationat view without looking up the basics. Is your source that reliable? Wish you better luck forming future views
the ultimate failure of mankind to resulve issues.
did i step on your toes? my bad i'm sorry. xD
a other problem causing this btw is people like you who call people names and put your own thoughts of my opinion, as my opinion. no need to call me those things you do..
i'm sorry that you have to hear that the jews are not always the victim as they like to pretend. and that this conflict didn't start when you think it has started. killing 750.000 people too even the population more, so that you can get a bigger proportion of the land when it gets divided. is not a moral or ethical right thing to do. you totally miss the point why they did not agree.
everyone who thinks it is right to kill for this reason is wrong.
hypothetically:
its like saying when the nazi would have been victorious and the left over world agreed with a big german empire. then we should forget about the gas chambers and ****. cause it is fair to use these methods.
or would you disagree? cause you are saying mass murder and genocide was a fair method for israel to use...
also, did the war against terrorism start a few days after 9/11 or the moment the 2nd plane went in? i think most people will say it starting on 9/11 and not when bush declared war against osama...
what i want to say with this is that you can not choose when the war started so that you can come up with evidence that suites your case. making it look like it is all the fault of the opposition.. the only thing you do is hide the truth. and i know its painfull when you come across someone that points at this truth. cause now you cant do your normal blabla about 1949 and how bad those palestinians are... in your mind it actually did start just in 1949, right?
The amount of wrong facts you have and opinions you take for facts is beyond me. You bash many popular pro Israel arguments that I don't even support. Seems you read what you want to read. Amazing how you even see all the pro-Israel posters the same.
With a complete white and black view I just can't compete, sorry. Again, good luck in the future but one more thing.
If you bother to check, here's a least of wrong facts that came up:
The US occupation as something that would have definitely ended by itself without Westernizing the Iraqi culture.
There is a unique Palestinian culture being destroyed.
Jews had to bribe and threaten world leaders to vote for its inclusion in the UN plan for Palestine (seems we have a powerful worldwide Jewish conspiracy!)
Israel was portioned an unquestionably better ground by the UN.
The West supported Israel from the start.
In 1900 there was a grounded Palestinian nationality and part of the Zionism agenda was to push them out.
There was no Arab terrorism and raids against the British or Jewish population up to 1949. (really?)
By Israel's creation there was a large number of native Palestinians settling there for generations, a few times larger then Israel's one.
Jews never should have left Europe (because you continued to ignore my question to what sparkled Zionism)
In the Independence war Jews kicked out Palestinian villages for the lone reason of ethnic cleansing.
Arabs don't need to want to co-exist. As long as Israel exists, its in their interest to always fight back no matter the odds.
Me thinking the fighting started in 1949, don't know where you got that. When I said the real war started then, its the Egyptian/Jordanian/Syrian/Iraqi/Lebanese invasion. Edit: Its also 1948. When did we start about 1949?
Israel did/is making a genocide.
To get more ground in the UN proposal, Israel killed 750,000. (where are you getting this?)
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the ultimate failure of mankind to resulve issues.
did i step on your toes? my bad i'm sorry. xD
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Really?
I support Israel and I believe this quote.
"If the Arabs laid down their weapons there would be no more violence, if Israel laid down their weapons there would be no more Israel." Benjamin Netanyahu
That sums it up perfectly.
I like Israel , but They are not fair to Palestininans. Let them have their freedom like you have it.
I do not care what anyone says. Listen. The US are the Israeli's biggest supporters. We give them the most money of any other group or country in the world. And does America even notice? Nope, I bet you didn't know that before you read this. Does that irritate you? Nope, probably because you've heard all your life that the Israeli people are hunted and persecuted and are and have been the victims for centuries. I am not disrespecting them in any way. I'm not talking about the Holocaust. Terrible stuff. But right now, America gives them billions of dollars to send missile strikes on the Gaza strip. I was about to say that they send missiles to the Palestinian country, but oh wait - they don't even have a country or a set plot of land for themselves. They were kicked out by the UN to give the Israelis their so-called "Promised Land'. Palestinians try to get a little of their land back, and they get pushed even father back. They live in poverty and suffering and constant US-supported persecution. Do yourself a favor - search "Israeli child" in Google and see the pictures of happy-go-lucky kids that show up. Then search "Palestinian child" and see the faces of suffering that come up. My point is, the world is constantly trying to make Israel a victim, and the truth today is, they are the antagonists.So if we're talking about today, and current events, no, I don't support Israel.
And by the way, this is one of the biggest pieces of bullcrap I've heard in a while:
I support Israel and I believe this quote."If the Arabs laid down their weapons there would be no more violence, if Israel laid down their weapons there would be no more Israel." Benjamin Netanyahu
That sums it up perfectly.
This (no offence) sounds like it's coming from a person who believes every thing they hear. The quote, though, is classic "Israeli people are victims today", and that they are only trying to protect themselves. Like I just wrote, this is garbage. Today, right now, THEY are the oppressors.
The US are the Israeli's biggest supporters. We give them the most money of any other group or country in the world.
Yes I know.
Does that irritate you? Nope, probably because you've heard all your life that the Israeli people are hunted and persecuted and are and have been the victims for centuries.
It irritates. I know that history wasn't good for them. But why should Palestinians pay for others sin?
Today, right now, THEY are the oppressors.
True.
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