ForumsWEPRis abortion ok?

867 278084
toemas
offline
toemas
339 posts
Farmer

Is abortion ok? I donât think so. The babies that these people are killing is wrong, some people say that itâs not a person that itâs a bag of cells or a fetus and not really human being I have to disagree

Please debate

  • 867 Replies
MageGrayWolf
offline
MageGrayWolf
9,470 posts
Farmer

is this still about abortion? =S


I'm beginning to wonder if that's the point.
Reton8
offline
Reton8
3,173 posts
King

is this still about abortion? =S
[quote]I'm beginning to wonder if that's the point
.[/quote]


What the hell sources do you want?!

Do you even know what apologetics means?

You asked questions and I gave replies.

I would say it is off topic, or at best very loosely connected with the discussion. It probably would be best to carry on the current discussion elsewhere and allow this topic to get back on track.
EmperorPalpatine
offline
EmperorPalpatine
9,444 posts
Jester

Let's start off with a more basic thing. Is life intrinsically valuable?

pangtongshu
offline
pangtongshu
9,815 posts
Jester

I could give the example that a parent will set a bedtime for there children, but do the parents also have to follow that standard? Must they go to bed at the same time as the children.


No..but then again, there is a huge difference between a parent sending a child to bed and a god killing its creations (and making them go through an eternity of torture) because they didn't follow his rules.

the Old Testament is more brutal because God needed to move a certain group of people from one area to another and preserve their lineage so that Jesus could be born. God being God, on occasion gave His people the right to kill the people who would stand in their way.


Or god, being the omnipotent power that he is, could have just protected the people in harmless ways for all, so that Jesus could be born. Or just not care about the lineage..and just have Jesus born.
Jesus's birth has no need for lineage..just a host to birth him.

But, in all cases quoted, these deeds were being preformed against the will of the women/person and as a form of punishment.

Yet in today's society we are performing abortions not as punishment and on women who usually have the abortions of their own will.


So wait..abortion should only be condoned if done as punishment?
So..not only do we have oppression of woman in the form of no free will over their body during the pregnancy..but also the oppression of woman for they will have their child possibly aborted if they do something that would deem such a thing as proper punishment?

If God can create the humans why does He not have a right to destroy them?

A human can kill a pig and eat it. Humans have dominion over animals. Why cannot God have dominion over humans?


So god is allowed to be tyrannical towards those he supposedly "loves"?

Yes, hence why God in human form as Jesus does live up to the standard perfectly.


But god in god form (the hell am I saying right now...) doesn't.

Should dogs be required to do homework and get jobs and live up to the standards of humans?


See now, though, we aren't expecting god to "live up" to our standards..like we would a dog in your hypothetical situation. We are expecting that he would, as an omnipotent and omni-loving god, to at least meet the standards he created for us so that we could be good little human beings.

In fact, in this argument, humans would actually be the dogs, as we are the lesser form like them. That would make god the "humans". The only difference is, we are able to live up to some of the standards given by god (unlike in your situation, where a dog can, in now way, expect to live up to such standards), but he does not live up to those standards himself (unlike in your situation, where a human does live up to such standards)..instead he goes well below those standards, to the point that if he was judged by the rules he has in place, he would most likely go to hell.
Well..did I just say that?

You then give commentary on what the passages mean without any sources and expect the reader to accept that this is the only way the passage can be interpreted.


1) Welcome to the world of explications. The source is the passage.

2) But if taking at face value, as Mage did, then he is correct. All he initially stated is that they were instances within the Bible that approved of abortion (for god was the one enacting them).

you also do not present your credentials on how well you know this subject matter.


Appeal to accomplishment

Your initial commentary, as it stands, no sources, and no credentials is pure speculation and total nonsense.


See..but he doesn't need sources. He is explicating the passages..so they are the only sources he needs.

And again..stating that he needs credentials is an appeal to accomplishment.
MageGrayWolf
offline
MageGrayWolf
9,470 posts
Farmer

Let's start off with a more basic thing. Is life intrinsically valuable?


Does life in itself or for it's own sake have value. I would say it does. That's what often makes the decision to abort or not a hard one to make. There is cost value being weighed here. That value is often weighed in how that life will impact another.
partydevil
offline
partydevil
5,133 posts
Jester

Does life in itself or for it's own sake have value. I would say it does.

but are we talking about life at the point that abortions are done? or are we just talking about a mass of cells that in the future can become life? and does this mass of cells have any value? any more value then a mass of cancer cells?
MageGrayWolf
offline
MageGrayWolf
9,470 posts
Farmer

but are we talking about life at the point that abortions are done?


Given the question seemed to deal with life in general the stage doesn't seem to matter for that.

or are we just talking about a mass of cells that in the future can become life?


It already is life, as pointed out before it's not yet a person though.

and does this mass of cells have any value? any more value then a mass of cancer cells?


We do tend to value life, particularly our own. This is because we are alive. Given what I stated earlier of what intrinsic value is, is that not placing intrinsic value on life? We also tend to view our offspring as a continuation of our own lives in sort. Thus we do extend that value to them, regardless of stage. That's likely where many get the concept of all abortion being wrong. This value we place on life in general and this value we place on our own and extend to that mass of cells creates the cost value that has to be considered.
partydevil
offline
partydevil
5,133 posts
Jester

that is if you see the mass of cells as life. i for one do not see it that way.
a fertilized egg cell has no more value then a cancer cell to me untill it starts having brain activity.

(anyway i have not been following the entire last few pages because it didn't look like the subject of abortion. and i was to late to follow the conversation of you 2 from the beginning.)

MageGrayWolf
offline
MageGrayWolf
9,470 posts
Farmer

that is if you see the mass of cells as life. i for one do not see it that way.
a fertilized egg cell has no more value then a cancer cell to me untill it starts having brain activity.


Brain activity would be an indication of personhood, not life. By what life is those mass of cells would be life. Which by the definition of intrinsic value that I'm using personhood would also hold such value to us and perhaps even more so than life in general.

(anyway i have not been following the entire last few pages because it didn't look like the subject of abortion. and i was to late to follow the conversation of you 2 from the beginning.)


This isn't following the arguing with Reton8. This is following the question EmperorPalpatine posed. "Is life intrinsically valuable?"

To hopefully avoid the philosophical argument of whether anything has intrinsic value, I was using the definition of intrinsic value meaning having value to itself or for it's own sake. By that definition life does have value to itself and for it's own sake to continue.
partydevil
offline
partydevil
5,133 posts
Jester

it's more a philosophical value then actual value then?
so it has more value for one then another.

HahiHa
offline
HahiHa
8,254 posts
Regent

Life does have a value for us, as living beings. But this value is extremely malleable. Killing flies or ants is no problem for us, but the more it's like us, the harder it is to dispose of it. So I would not say that life has value per se. It has ecological value for other organisms, and it has idealistic value for self-conscious animals.

mbbs112
offline
mbbs112
198 posts
Peasant

Abortion isnt okay from my opinion because i saw a T.v show where this woman was pregnant but her husband pushed her which resulted in the death of the baby but before that the baby was alive and starting to come out but it died then what happened is the baby's ghost was in the moms body trying to get out which made her feel really bad as she was gonna abort the baby then finally they got the babys ghost out of her body so abortion is not okay

pangtongshu
offline
pangtongshu
9,815 posts
Jester

Abortion isnt okay from my opinion because i saw a T.v show where this woman was pregnant but her husband pushed her which resulted in the death of the baby but before that the baby was alive and starting to come out but it died then what happened is the baby's ghost was in the moms body trying to get out which made her feel really bad as she was gonna abort the baby then finally they got the babys ghost out of her body so abortion is not okay


/facepalm
I'm just...I'm just going to walk away from a bit

*hysterical laughter*

*walks back*
Ok..I'm good. So let me get this straight..
You think abortion is completely wrong..because of a T.V. show you saw?
MageGrayWolf
offline
MageGrayWolf
9,470 posts
Farmer

Abortion isnt okay from my opinion because i saw a T.v show where this woman was pregnant but her husband pushed her which resulted in the death of the baby but before that the baby was alive and starting to come out but it died then what happened is the baby's ghost was in the moms body trying to get out which made her feel really bad as she was gonna abort the baby then finally they got the babys ghost out of her body so abortion is not okay


There is this little thing we have called fiction. You might want to look it up.
Kasic
offline
Kasic
5,557 posts
Jester

There is this little thing we have called fiction


It's also not even abortion, in the sense of a woman going to a doctor/taking a pill...
Showing 691-705 of 867