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DSM
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DSM
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Nomad

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stanley-weiss/pashtun-nationalism_b_2117534.html

Pashtun/pathan is a ethnic group in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Do you think creating Pashtunistan will defeat Taliban and create stability to the region?

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DSM
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DSM
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Nomad

If that is the case, it is simply because they are not actively trying to fight over the same piece of land currently.


I am beginning to think that you dont know who Taliban is...

Nationalist movements that are politically successful are almost always extremist and/or power hungry. If we succeeded at creating "Pashtun Nationalism" we would simply be replacing one problematic group with another.


You dont need to be extremist to be a nationalist. I bet any European or American is nationalist, it basically a sense of pride for the nation. So I doubt it will do any harm to give the ethnic group a national pride. The USA is doing the same in Afghanistan, and actually that is the main strategy there.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

They may have it, but since they think it forbidden, they dont work on it.


It doesn't matter, one way or another, the Afghan Taliban want to drive the US out, which has always been they're stated aim. Clouding it with Pashtun nationalism is drivel. The Pashtun at any rate have a fiercely independent tribal nature, but they're main aim, has been the ousting of NATO forces, and not a homeland.

And how do you remove these people from power. By creating Pashtunistan and supporting modern Pashtuns. This way nationalism will replace extremism from Talibans.


Nationalism is never good. And furthermore, as has been explained earlier, ever since the 1970s, Muslims have been on the whole, suspicious of these Western ''isms'', due to the failures of secular governments all around the Muslim world, including Afghanistan. When the Soviets were driven out, that sent a powerful psychological message that deeply embedded religious fundamentalism even more.

Why didnt it fail in Afghanistan. I mean the support of a government. Basically USA will be doing the same thing in Pashtunistan, as they did in Afghanistan. The difference is however in the effectiveness. USA will be fighting Talibans and liberating the oppressed people directly.
In other words, the strict Islam would be replaced with Pashtun culture and modern Islam.


Afghanistan didn't fail? Look at the state of it now. The Afghan government will never properly stay in power without NATO forces in place. Pashtun culture IS the source of such strict Islam, in Afghanistan. In fact, the Taliban's extremely strict and anti-modern ideology has been described as an 'innovative form of sharia combining Pashtun tribal codes,' or Pashtunwali, with radical Deobandi interpretations of Islam.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

You dont need to be extremist to be a nationalist. I bet any European or American is nationalist, it basically a sense of pride for the nation. So I doubt it will do any harm to give the ethnic group a national pride. The USA is doing the same in Afghanistan, and actually that is the main strategy there.


To be nationalist today is generally referring not only to the love of the nation (Patriotism), but also a sense of superiority over others.
thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
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Nomad

The main source of Taliban recruiting is in fact the poor people, which is most likely send to madrassas. In other words, the amount of support Afghanistan and Pakistan is receiving isn't gone to the effort to reduce the Taliban capability, or liberating it people for that matter.

You fail to see that the main reason that more and more talibans are being recruited is the presence of foreign forces in afghanistan and drone strikes in pakistani tribal areas.
These people live and die by revenge.
DSM
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DSM
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Nomad

It doesn't matter, one way or another, the Afghan Taliban want to drive the US out, which has always been they're stated aim. Clouding it with Pashtun nationalism is drivel. The Pashtun at any rate have a fiercely independent tribal nature, but they're main aim, has been the ousting of NATO forces, and not a homeland.


Pashtun culture IS the source of such strict Islam, in Afghanistan. In fact,


This is not true. I do agree on that Pashtun are independent tribal nature and want the NATO forces out, but Taliban doesn't represent Pashtun people. Strict Islamic laws have nothing to do with the Pashtun people. I do agree on they are religious, but there is a fine line between being religious and Talibans. The strict Islamic laws was introduced to the Pashtun people by Pakistan and USA, back when the Soviet had invaded Afghanistan. The Islamic laws was basically forced on Pashtuns.

Here is a video where Pashtun people is fighting Talibans and saids after they defeat Taliban, they fight NATO troops. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EREa035NhXU

Afghanistan didn't fail? Look at the state of it now. The Afghan government will never properly stay in power without NATO forces in place.


It didnt fail, it got its motive done. It not the afghan governments fault that the USA is blinded, which results on the effectiveness of it. As I said before, if they did do the exact same thing to Pashtunistan as they did in Afghanistan, then the Talibans would have failed within 3 years, instead of 11+ years.

To be nationalist today is generally referring not only to the love of the nation (Patriotism), but also a sense of superiority over others.


I checked the word and it said it is pride/love to the nation, but no matter what it is called, what I meant with it was pride to nation and not any sort of superiority.

You fail to see that the main reason that more and more talibans are being recruited is the presence of foreign forces in afghanistan and drone strikes in pakistani tribal areas.
These people live and die by revenge.


This is so not true, there is allot more them. All their values is based on honor. Let me show a few examples from Pashtunwali

Melmastia (hospitality) - Showing hospitality and profound respect to all visitors, regardless of race, religion, national affiliation or economic status and doing so without any hope of remuneration or favour. Pashtuns will go to great lengths to show their hospitality.

Nanawatai (asylum) - Derived from the verb meaning to go in, this refers to the protection given to a person against his or her enemies. People are protected at all costs; even those running from the law must be given refuge until the situation can be clarified.Nanawatai can also be used when the vanquished party in a dispute is prepared to go in to the house of the victors and ask for their forgiveness.

Sabat (loyalty) - Loyalty must be paid to one's family, friends and tribe members. Pashtuns can never become disloyal as this would be a matter of shame for their families and themselves.

Imandari (righteousness) - A Pashtun must always strive for good in thought, word and deed. Pashtuns must behave respectfully to people, animals and the environment around them. Pollution of the environment or its destruction is against the Pashtunwali.

Ghayrat (courage) - Pashtuns must demonstrate courage. Their honour, or pride, has great importance in Pashtun society and must be preserved. They must respect themselves and others in order to be able to do so, especially those they do not know. Respect begins at home, among family members and relatives. If one does not have "Ghayrat" they are not classed as a Pashtun

Namus (protection of women) - A Pashtun must defend the honour of women at all costs and must protect them from vocal and physical harm (another prove of the main goal to liberate the women from Taliban oppression will be archived if Pashtunistan was created)

Nang (Honour) - a Pashtun must defend the weak around him.

They doesn't sound all that bad, does they...after my opinion it exactly what that region needs.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

This is not true. I do agree on that Pashtun are independent tribal nature and want the NATO forces out, but Taliban doesn't represent Pashtun people. Strict Islamic laws have nothing to do with the Pashtun people. I do agree on they are religious, but there is a fine line between being religious and Talibans. The strict Islamic laws was introduced to the Pashtun people by Pakistan and USA, back when the Soviet had invaded Afghanistan. The Islamic laws was basically forced on Pashtuns.


The Pashtunwali has always been around, and it's not a recent phenomenon. Other Muslim groups have long complained that much of what the Pashtun have practised is not part of what the Quaran espouses.

It didnt fail, it got its motive done. It not the afghan governments fault that the USA is blinded, which results on the effectiveness of it. As I said before, if they did do the exact same thing to Pashtunistan as they did in Afghanistan, then the Talibans would have failed within 3 years, instead of 11+ years.


A failed state is one where a government can't physically control its territory; has no, or only a limited, monopoly on the legitimate use of force; cannot adopt and enforce decisions binding for the whole country; is unable to provide basic public services; and cannot represent the whole country in the international community -- that state is a failed or failing one, depending on the level of these shortcomings. Afghanistan has fulfilled all of these, and ranks near Somalia and the Sudan.

The Taliban and criminal gangs, old and new warlords, and tribal leaders rule vast parts of the country. The authority of the government, many of whose ministers are considered corrupt, barely extends beyond its offices in Kabul. In order to survive, the Karzai government has to ignore or accommodate all those forces working to undermine it, from the Taliban to the warlords. This has even empowered them, occasionally forcing Karzai to appoint them as governors or to acknowledge their local authority. The government has to stoop to levels of inviting the Taliban to help in the governing process.

Splitting the nation up even further will only evoke resentment, allow the Taliban to consolidate their hold on power, and virtually create a terrorist fief right on the crossroads of central Asia.
DSM
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DSM
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Nomad

The Pashtunwali has always been around, and it's not a recent phenomenon. Other Muslim groups have long complained that much of what the Pashtun have practised is not part of what the Quaran espouses.


Pashtunwali is not a law or rules. It a moral code, that even by modern western standards would be considered great.

A failed state is one where a government can't physically control its territory; has no, or only a limited, monopoly on the legitimate use of force; cannot adopt and enforce decisions binding for the whole country; is unable to provide basic public services; and cannot represent the whole country in the international community -- that state is a failed or failing one, depending on the level of these shortcomings.


It is what it is, because that how they wanted it to be. The USA made a big mistake by not supporting Pashtuns which is 50 % of Afghanistans population if not more. The motives the afghan government was made for, was fulfilled.

Splitting the nation up even further will only evoke resentment, allow the Taliban to consolidate their hold on power, and virtually create a terrorist fief right on the crossroads of central Asia.


Tell me, in what way will the Talibans gain more power. I mean even now Pakistan nor Afghanistan have any control over Pashtun territories. So basically the worst case scenario is already happening. By creating Pashtunistan it will create a government which the Pashtun people can trust, which decrease the Taliban support and eventually defeating them.

Right now the Pashtun peoples have no reason to trust any of the two governments. In Pakistan side, they will get assimilated to Punjab culture and urdu language, and in Afghanistan side, they will assimilate to Tajik culture and dari language.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

Pashtunwali is not a law or rules. It a moral code, that even by modern western standards would be considered great.


I am not one to criticize the whole code, but the rest of the old Northern Alliance, the Tajiks and Uzbeks have complained about the harshness of their moral code.

It is what it is, because that how they wanted it to be. The USA made a big mistake by not supporting Pashtuns which is 50 % of Afghanistans population if not more. The motives the afghan government was made for, was fulfilled.


The Americans tried to co-opt all groups into the government. That is democracy. If the motive of the creation of the Afghan government was to breed chaos, then it has. Unfortunately, that is not what it was made for. It was set up to ensure a state friendly to the United States, and one devoid of terrorism. This has not worked up.


Tell me, in what way will the Talibans gain more power. I mean even now Pakistan nor Afghanistan have any control over Pashtun territories. So basically the worst case scenario is already happening. By creating Pashtunistan it will create a government which the Pashtun people can trust, which decrease the Taliban support and eventually defeating them.


Alright I will tell you. The Pashtuns have always been the largest supporters of the Taliban, both in and out of Pakistan. In 2007, nearly three-fourths of poll respondents said they oppose U.S. military action against al Qaeda and the Taliban inside Pakistan, according to results from the poll conducted by the independent polling organization Terror Free Tomorrow. According to poll results, bin Laden has a 46 percent approval rating. Musharraf's support is 38 percent. U.S. President George W. Bush's approval: 9 percent.

Asked their opinion on the real purpose of the U.S.-led war on terror, 66 percent of poll respondents said they believe the United States is acting against Islam or has anti-Muslim motivation. Others refused to answer the question or said they did not know.

Whilst in the US, the Taliban is viewed with nothing but bitter vitriol, it has widespread support in Afghanistan. The US public by 51-37 percent opposes a negotiated settlement between the Afghan government and the Taliban that would allow Taliban members to hold government offices if they agreed to stop fighting. That kind of deal commands far higher support in Afghanistan itself â" 65 percent in an ABC News/BBC/ARD poll there in December.

By creating Pashtunistan it will create a government which the Pashtun people can trust, which decrease the Taliban support and eventually defeating them.


And that government will be the Taliban, the mujaheddin which gained enormous amounts of prestige first chasing out the USSR, and then standing up to the States.
DSM
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DSM
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Nomad

I am not one to criticize the whole code, but the rest of the old Northern Alliance, the Tajiks and Uzbeks have complained about the harshness of their moral code.


They were rivals, it is to be expected from them. If you look up the 10 Pashtunwali codes, you will realize it is quite honorable and noble.

It was set up to ensure a state friendly to the United States


It is USA friendly so that part of it has worked, and it has provide allot of protections/stability especially in non Pashtun areas. So it has done what it was made for. USA has focused the government in those areas, since they were less hostile towards them. So the government delivered what it was brought for.

Alright I will tell you. The Pashtuns have always been the largest supporters of the Taliban, both in and out of Pakistan.


They are Taliban supporters because Pakistan and Afghanistan government have failed to provide the Pashtun people any support. And the international community have basically declared them Talibans.

And that government will be the Taliban, the mujaheddin which gained enormous amounts of prestige first chasing out the USSR, and then standing up to the States.


Why would it be? There allot of Pashtun soldiers both in Pakistan and Afghan army. There is even allot of politicians in both countries. They will make up an excellent country, especially when more modern Pashtuns will join for their nation. When the Pashtun areas is modernize, the Taliban influence will fade away.
The only reason Taliban got any influence is because of poverty and uneducated people. Creating a state where they can learn about their own culture and language instead of urdu and Pakistan history, will be supported by majority of people.
As I said before, the Taliban and Taliban mentality didnt exist in Pashtun people before the Soviet invasion. They got it only because USA and Pakistan basically forced it into them, since the extremist apparently fought for Americans better.
wontgetmycatnip
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wontgetmycatnip
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Peasant

I am beginning to think that you dont know who Taliban is...

Well, I havenât met a member of the Taleban personally. I do go to a gym full of vets who have dealt with the people on a personal basis, however.
The main source of Taliban recruiting is in fact the poor people, which is most likely send to madrassas.

They are Taliban supporters because Pakistan and Afghanistan government have failed to provide the Pashtun people any support. And the international community have basically declared them Talibans.

Technically correct, but wrong in its implications. The Taleban receives fresh recruits mainly due to insecurity and poverty. Restore peace and prosperity to the region, and you will see war evaporate.
You fail to see that the main reason that more and more talibans are being recruited is the presence of -foreign forces in afghanistan and drone strikes in pakistani tribal areas.
These people live and die by revenge.

If there were not significant foreign forces in Afganistan, it would still be at war with itself. The conditions in Afganistan- poverty, insecurity, nationalist and religious extremism- arenât very likely to result in an outbreak of peace happening anytime soon.
This is so not true, there is allot more them. All their values is based on honor.

Everyone can call themselves honorable, and think up a nice sounding code of ethics to go along with that.
Pashtunwali is not a law or rules. It a moral code, that even by modern western standards would be considered great.

The Taliban mixes Sharia with Pashtunwali. They would agree with you on that point, even though most westerners would not.
Why would it be? There allot of Pashtun soldiers both in Pakistan and Afghan army. There is even allot of politicians in both countries. They will make up an excellent country, especially when more modern Pashtuns will join for their nation. When the Pashtun areas is modernize, the Taliban influence will fade away.

So try telling two large nations that they both have to willingly give up a large piece of land.
The only reason Taliban got any influence is because of poverty and uneducated people. Creating a state where they can learn about their own culture and language instead of urdu and Pakistan history, will be supported by majority of people.
As I said before, the Taliban and Taliban mentality didnt exist in Pashtun people before the Soviet invasion. They got it only because USA and Pakistan basically forced it into them, since the extremist apparently fought for Americans better.

The Taleban didn't exist until half a year to two years after the Soviets were kicked out. The US sponsored the Mujahideen, who were a loose alliance of different groups, some of which joined the Taleban and some of which fought against it.
The Taleban arose in response to atrocities committed by the local government troops- who were often also Pashtuns.
The Taleban first recruited from from ââجÙ...Ûعت عÙÙ...ائÛ' اسÙاÙ... (Assembly of Islamic Clergy) members, usually students. Pakistan sponsored these schools.
We sponsored A.S. Massoud, who was (relatively) moderate and who had helped throw out the soviets. He had defeated the Taleban in battle, but was assassinated by them eventually.

I am beginning to think that you dont know who Taliban is...
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

They are Taliban supporters because Pakistan and Afghanistan government have failed to provide the Pashtun people any support. And the international community have basically declared them Talibans.


These surveys are done throughout the nation and not just in Pashtun areas;; a reflection of all Afghans.



It is USA friendly so that part of it has worked, and it has provide allot of protections/stability especially in non Pashtun areas. So it has done what it was made for. USA has focused the government in those areas, since they were less hostile towards them. So the government delivered what it was brought for.


There are more than a dozen other insurgent groups working in Afghanistan and these are not Pashtun centric. The problem isn't the Pashtuns, the primary problem is the occupation and the failed governance.

Why would it be? There allot of Pashtun soldiers both in Pakistan and Afghan army. There is even allot of politicians in both countries. They will make up an excellent country, especially when more modern Pashtuns will join for their nation. When the Pashtun areas is modernize, the Taliban influence will fade away.


Modernize into what? A Western democracy? It's an arrogant way to look at other nations and assume they're all going to ho down the same path as the Western world and modernize. As Martin Jacques, the eminent political scientist has pointed out, there are different kinds of modernization. And even so, we have already seen what happens when the Pashtuns were in total power. Hint, they supported the Taliban.

The only reason Taliban got any influence is because of poverty and uneducated people. Creating a state where they can learn about their own culture and language instead of urdu and Pakistan history, will be supported by majority of people.


Are you even sure about the origin of the Taliban? Look at what Cat said.

As I said before, the Taliban and Taliban mentality didnt exist in Pashtun people before the Soviet invasion. They got it only because USA and Pakistan basically forced it into them, since the extremist apparently fought for Americans better.


No. These people started the group themselves, external forces merely jumped on the bandwagon and armed them. They are not direct Western creations.
wontgetmycatnip
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wontgetmycatnip
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Peasant

No. These people started the group themselves, external forces merely jumped on the bandwagon and armed them. They are not direct Western creations.

What happened was that when the Mujahideen broke up, they resumed squabbling amongst themselves; this included many groups, including the predecessors of the Taliban. The weapons that were given to them by the various opponents of the Soviet Union were used during the infighting that followed, and when the dust had settled, the Taliban was in power and in control of a large stockpile of western arms. Many of the stingers supplied to them in the 80's are still in working condition.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

Course. I took two years of religious history studies. But what DSM is insinuating is that it was forced on them by Americans.

thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
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Nomad

This is so not true, there is allot more them. All their values is based on honor. Let me show a few examples from Pashtunwali

Melmastia (hospitality) - Showing hospitality and profound respect to all visitors, regardless of race, religion, national affiliation or economic status and doing so without any hope of remuneration or favour. Pashtuns will go to great lengths to show their hospitality.

Nanawatai (asylum) - Derived from the verb meaning to go in, this refers to the protection given to a person against his or her enemies. People are protected at all costs; even those running from the law must be given refuge until the situation can be clarified.Nanawatai can also be used when the vanquished party in a dispute is prepared to go in to the house of the victors and ask for their forgiveness.

Sabat (loyalty) - Loyalty must be paid to one's family, friends and tribe members. Pashtuns can never become disloyal as this would be a matter of shame for their families and themselves.

Imandari (righteousness) - A Pashtun must always strive for good in thought, word and deed. Pashtuns must behave respectfully to people, animals and the environment around them. Pollution of the environment or its destruction is against the Pashtunwali.

Ghayrat (courage) - Pashtuns must demonstrate courage. Their honour, or pride, has great importance in Pashtun society and must be preserved. They must respect themselves and others in order to be able to do so, especially those they do not know. Respect begins at home, among family members and relatives. If one does not have "Ghayrat" they are not classed as a Pashtun

Namus (protection of women) - A Pashtun must defend the honour of women at all costs and must protect them from vocal and physical harm (another prove of the main goal to liberate the women from Taliban oppression will be archived if Pashtunistan was created)

Nang (Honour) - a Pashtun must defend the weak around him.

They doesn't sound all that bad, does they...after my opinion it exactly what that region needs.

If you had seen what have seen, you would not be so sure.about these values.
Do you know they kill for these values?
My area borders there's and many times we see them taking refuge in our area.
and many times they are killed for old country's quabbels in our area..
thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
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