Forums → WEPR → Pashtunistan

Well, I havenât met a member of the Taleban personally. I do go to a gym full of vets who have dealt with the people on a personal basis, however.

The Taleban receives fresh recruits mainly due to insecurity and poverty.

Restore peace and prosperity to the region, and you will see war evaporate.

If there were not significant foreign forces in Afganistan, it would still be at war with itself. The conditions in Afganistan- poverty, insecurity, nationalist and religious extremism- arenât very likely to result in an outbreak of peace happening anytime soon.

Everyone can call themselves honorable, and think up a nice sounding code of ethics to go along with that.

The Taliban mixes Sharia with Pashtunwali. They would agree with you on that point, even though most westerners would not.

So try telling two large nations that they both have to willingly give up a large piece of land.

The Taleban arose in response to atrocities committed by the local government troops- who were often also Pashtuns.

We sponsored A.S. Massoud, who was (relatively) moderate and who had helped throw out the soviets. He had defeated the Taleban in battle, but was assassinated by them eventually.

I am beginning to think that you dont know who Taliban is..

There are more than a dozen other insurgent groups working in Afghanistan and these are not Pashtun centric.

The problem isn't the Pashtuns,

the primary problem is the occupation and the failed governance.

And even so, we have already seen what happens when the Pashtuns were in total power. Hint, they supported the Taliban.

Are you even sure about the origin of the Taliban?

No. These people started the group themselves, external forces merely jumped on the bandwagon and armed them. They are not direct Western creations.

My area borders there's and many times we see them taking refuge in our area.
and many times they are killed for old country's quabbels in our area..

Something to read

What would they need that large piece of land if they dont have any control over it? And even more important, why would they need if they dont help the population there? They live poverty and with no security, which recruits thousands of rebel fighters.
I even see as hypocrisy in Pakistan if that the case. Pakistan keep complaining about Israel, yet they themselves do the same thing, the different is that Israel at least support the people within it lands

How does this relate to the topic? If anything, it just prove my point.

The primary problem is poverty and the lack of support to modern people in Taliban strongholds.

Did you see them, when they killed them?
if so, how do you know they killed them because of so called revenge?
There is around 30-40 millions pashtuns in Pakistan, I doubt you see them go around and kill people randomly.
I do agree on that they have a code called Badal, which is revenge, but that is only very small part of the Pashtun culture. You made it sound like, that all they do.

I would have thought that we would learn the lessons of history and not pin our hopes on arbitrary line drawing circa 1920s self determination. Creating states out of nations isn't necessarily the road to peace. Implying that people of different cultures cannot live alongside one another is a slippery slope.

In any case there are a myriad of reasons behind the ongoing conflict in Afghanistan, some historical, some contemporary. But to think that creating Pashtunistan will solve the problem is a gross simplification for a number of reasons. Firstly, it implies that the Pashtun people are themselves unified. Yes they share the same language and culture more or less, but it is that same culture that spawns violent tribal tendencies. A central government would struggle to impose statehood on a disparate people much in the same way the Karzai struggles now, only on a smaller scale.

Then there are the outside players to consider. Pakistan for one would not be happy with an independent Pashtun state, which would no doubt act as a safe haven for the Mujahideen to mount further attacks on Northern Pakistan. Looking already at how far the Pakistani armed forces have incurred into Waziristan, if the Pashtun's gained independence, they could find themselves beset upon very quickly by their neighbours.

Ultimately however, until the Kabul based government can rid itself of corruption and govern for the people and not for themselves, regionalism will prevail. I believe that the key problem in Afghanistan is a dearth of political leaders willing to challenge the status quo and make meaningful steps in the right direction. It is a fallacy that Afghan culture is rooted in the Middle Ages and that any attempt to make progressive unifying reforms is doomed to failure. The Soviets and the Taleban are in no small part responsible for this, although the endemically corrupt Karzai government should also take some of the blame on this count.

Things will not change overnight. It took the Western world hundreds of years to properly develop functioning demicracies. How we expect Afghanistan to do so in mere decades is ridiculous, and these kind of 'miracle cure' ideas do nothing but distract from sensible long term policy making and implementation.

I would have thought that we would learn the lessons of history and not pin our hopes on arbitrary line drawing circa 1920s self determination. Creating states out of nations isn't necessarily the road to peace. Implying that people of different cultures cannot live alongside one another is a slippery slope.

In any case there are a myriad of reasons behind the ongoing conflict in Afghanistan, some historical, some contemporary. But to think that creating Pashtunistan will solve the problem is a gross simplification for a number of reasons. Firstly, it implies that the Pashtun people are themselves unified. Yes they share the same language and culture more or less, but it is that same culture that spawns violent tribal tendencies. A central government would struggle to impose statehood on a disparate people much in the same way the Karzai struggles now, only on a smaller scale.

Then there are the outside players to consider. Pakistan for one would not be happy with an independent Pashtun state, which would no doubt act as a safe haven for the Mujahideen to mount further attacks on Northern Pakistan. Looking already at how far the Pakistani armed forces have incurred into Waziristan, if the Pashtun's gained independence, they could find themselves beset upon very quickly by their neighbours.

Ultimately however, until the Kabul based government can rid itself of corruption and govern for the people and not for themselves, regionalism will prevail. I believe that the key problem in Afghanistan is a dearth of political leaders willing to challenge the status quo and make meaningful steps in the right direction. It is a fallacy that Afghan culture is rooted in the Middle Ages and that any attempt to make progressive unifying reforms is doomed to failure. The Soviets and the Taleban are in no small part responsible for this, although the endemically corrupt Karzai government should also take some of the blame on this count.

Things will not change overnight. It took the Western world hundreds of years to properly develop functioning demicracies. How we expect Afghanistan to do so in mere decades is ridiculous, and these kind of 'miracle cure' ideas do nothing but distract from sensible long term policy making and implementation.

Well said Serenity.

Mention some, all I hear about is Taliban from any source I try to find.

The primary problem is poverty and the lack of support to modern people in Taliban strongholds.

The only times when Pashtuns was in power, was back in times of kings. They hadn't been in power in the last 30-40 years.

Then you have no idea what kind of brainwashing was done in the religious schools. And by support the extremist, you are giving them bigger influence.
It actually the same thing Iran is doing in western Afghanistan. They are only supporting people who are pro-Iran. This way they increase they influence throughout Afghanistan.

Afghan support for the Taliban is genuine, and they have showed support to oust NATO troops out.

Many Afghans fear a return of the Taleban, and for good reason.

The Saudis supported the Taliban

seems logical. if usa keeps fighting them. they have to keep buying loads of oil.
good move of saudi there..

Supported

The lesser of two evils it seems.

This is not lost upon the non Pashtun Afghans who have much to lose should the Taleban return to power. Sure, they dislike the duplicity of ISAF, and the corruption of Kabul, but at the end of the day, these institutions aren't going to chop off their feet for the simple reason of inhabiting a different region of the country. As cynical as this may sound, it might be wise for ISAF and Karzai to play on this fear in order to diminish support for Islamic fundamentalism in Helmand. If they were competent enough though, I fear they would already have done this. As it is, once the troops are pulled out in 2014, the Taleban will slowly but surely regain ground.

What is missing from the current discussion is the semi racial element. The Taleban claim to welcome those who follow the path of Allah, but as is sadly inevitable in all exclusive doctrines, outsiders are seen as less than human. Much of the conflict which exists now is drawn upon tribal lines, but not in the way one would think. It is more similar to racism/xenophobia than tribalism in terms of the way if affects the collective behaviour of the Afghans as a whole. This is not lost upon the non Pashtun Afghans who have much to lose should the Taleban return to power. Sure, they dislike the duplicity of ISAF, and the corruption of Kabul, but at the end of the day, these institutions aren't going to chop off their feet for the simple reason of inhabiting a different region of the country. As cynical as this may sound, it might be wise for ISAF and Karzai to play on this fear in order to diminish support for Islamic fundamentalism in Helmand. If they were competent enough though, I fear they would already have done this. As it is, once the troops are pulled out in 2014, the Taleban will slowly but surely regain ground.

The troubles of Afghanistan and its people have to count as one of the greatest tradgedies of the past half century, and it seems like they may continue for another fifty years. Ultimately however, the power of the Taleban is derived from their relative cohesion in comparison to the Northern tribes, and the people's fear of them and their brutality. But fear is no way to sustain control in a country as divided as Afghanistan, and in that I can take some small comfort.

How is it so?

It proves that Pakistani Taliban are a different breed.
Tattoos are forbidden in Islam and with living things tattoos, you can't say your prayers.
If Taliban were as hardcore as they claim, even if this person was a new convert, the first thing he would have will be erasing that tattoo.
Also, I read many times that they have found uncircumcised bodies of the and gorkha bodies too, this proves that a foreign hand is involved.
There is a Policeman named aftab phlarwan, he did operations against them and wrote an auto biography.read it.

Citing this reason is turning a bling eye to the regions history.
Brits tried it, Greeks and russians tried it but they were repulsed.
In those days, resistance did not have a religious color but this time this happens to be the case, its only a coincidence.
This was not religiously motivated,

Because that is one of the most important things that they do.
Often, their tribal vendettas go over a century back.
You are mistaken to think that it is a "small" part of their culture.
Actually it is the most important part of their culture.
Its blood for blood or woman for blood.

Firstly, it implies that the Pashtun people are themselves unified. Yes they share the same language and culture more or less, but it is that same culture that spawns violent tribal tendencies. A central government would struggle to impose statehood on a disparate people much in the same way the Karzai struggles now, only on a smaller scale.

Pakistan for one would not be happy with an independent Pashtun state, which would no doubt act as a safe haven for the Mujahideen to mount further attacks on Northern Pakistan.

Hizb-i-Gullbudin, Islamic Jihad Union, Harakat-ul-Mujahideen, Jalaluddin Haqqani Network, Mullah Dadullah Front, Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, just to name a few. Pity that most people only think they're fighting a monolithic group.

That is a secondary problem stemming from the immensely inept governance, that has done little for the people.

The Taliban ruled from 1996 to 2001. I don't know why it gets forgotten so easily.

The Saudis supported the Taliban, not the Iranians.

Of course the millions of dollars of Saudi help pouring into madrassah and weapons does help, but this was only after the Taliban had grown in stature.

Mullah Omar started his own madrassah with his own resources which formed the nucleus for the Taliban.