Discuss. General Tavern rules apply. (No mudslinging, be respectful, etc.) I'll open with the statement that people should not have guns. No one at all, except the armed forces, and even then, keep the guns on the bases. Cops should carry riot shields and armor instead of guns. If they need crowd control, use Water Cannons. Supporting evidence: the following skit: What's your reason? Setting: A gun shop, modern day. A Customer walks into the gun shop and asks the Shopkeeper, "Hi, i'd like to buy a gun please." The Shopkeeper pulls out an application form and asks the customer "Alright, what's your reason for wanting to buy a gun?" The Customer says "I need one for personal protection." The Shopkeeper nods. "I have just the thing for you, I guarantee you cannot get any more personal protection than this baby right here. What i'm about to show you offers so much protection, it can stop a shotgun shell." The customer, very interested, stares at a full-size Riot Shield, the kind the police use. He scoffs. "That's not what I want, I want a gun!" The Shopkeeper shrugs. "Are you sure? This fine piece of equipment will protect you more than a gun ever will! It's very strong, reinforced titanium and kevlar..." by now, the angry Customer has left. Later, another Customer enters. "Hi, I need a gun." Again, the Shopkeeper clicks his pen and pulls out an application form. "For what reason?" he asks. The Customer hesitates, than says "Hunting." The shopkeeper smiles. "Of course! I love to hunt. Hunting is a wonderful sport. I guarantee that this item will give you the maximum amount of satisfaction you can ever get from hunting! Here, this is the sport at its peak." And he pulls out a Crossbow, complete with crosshairs for better accuracy. The customer shakes his head. "No, I want a gun." he states. The shopkeeper reluctantly puts away the Crossbow. "Are you sure? With a gun, it's so...boring, just pulling a trigger. And it's unfair to the animal, with this you give the deer a chance and have to chase it for up to an hour, just like the Native Americans did back in the day! Unless of course..." He fails to finish his sentence, as the pissed off customer has left in a huff. Later, a third customer walks in. "Hi, I'd like to buy a gun." he says. The shopkeeper holds his pen at the ready. "For what reason, sir?" he asks. The customer glares. "I dont need a reason, read the god **** second amendment "THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS." It's in the constitution you idiot! The shopkeeper merely smiles. "Of course, I have the perfect thing for you. This gun is covered under Second Amendment laws, guaranteed!" And he holds up a 200-year-old, civil-war-era musket, complete with rusty bayonet. The customer shrieks. "No, man! I want a Glock, a shotgun, something better than that civil war crap!" The shopkeeper merely smiles. "I'm sorry sir, please come back when they update the second amendment to include those types of guns. Here, i'll even give you a discount..." the shopkeeper holds out a discount to the enraged customer, who tears it in half and leaves. Fourthly, another Customer walks in. "I really need a gun, now." He says. The Shopkeeper holds his pen and application form ready. "For what reason, sir?" he asks. Instead of stating his reason this time, the Customer snatches the application form and looks at it. There, in the spot titled "Reasons" is a circle for "other". "Other! That's my reason!" the Customer declares triumphantly. The shopkeeper shrugs. "Very good answer sir." he says, while pressing a button under the counter. Two cops arrive at the shop in less than a minute and cuff the Customer. "Hey! What the *PROFANITY* ARE YOU *PROFANITY* GUYS DOING? I'VE DONE NOTHING WRONG!" He yells, almost breaking the glass of the windows. "Actually, you have." The Shopkeeper begins. "the "other" reason, by exclusion of the other reason, can only include wanting to kill or rob someone. Therefore, you were thinking about commiting a crime when you selected "Other" as your reason. Caught you red-handed, trying to buy the tools necessary to commiting a crime. You confessed to it when you selected "Other"! Take him downtown, please." The cops nod and take the Customer away. The last thing he hears from the Shopkeeper is "Oh, and I knew it was you all those times!"
Moral of the story: You do NOT need a gun for a particular activity. In any given activity (And I challenge you to give me a valid, legal activity for which you would need to personally own a gun), there are many other options. Why buy a gun for personal protection when a Riot Shield blocks shotgun shells? Why buy a gun for hunting when the point of hunting (and every other sport) is satisfaction, and since you get more satisfaction with more challenge, and since a crossbow offers more challenge than a gun, you'll get more satisfaction with the crossbow. Why buy a gun based on the Second Amendment when the Colonial-age guns were either giant cannons or black-powder, muzzle-loading Muskets? Did the Founding Fathers have AR-15's, and SPAZ-12 shotguns,And AK 47s, not to mention all the accessories like laser scopes and hollow-point bullets? I dont think so!
The only way you can disprove my argument is to give me a valid, LEGAL activity which requires you to personally own a gun. This excludes Skeet-shooting, because the facility can and should/will provide the gun. Until anyone can do that, YOU DONT NEED A GUN, NO ONE NEEDS GUNS! They're WAY too dangerous and make it too easy to kill someone! Why have something you dont need?
if random people have no guns then criminals wont need body armor. they wont be needing guns even because their victims have no guns either. instead of buying a fancy gun they buy drugs or whatever they can't pay but need money for anyway. instead they use a knife and rope for house robberies. and those that do have a gun wont shoot that fast because they do not expect anyone to be able to stop them anyway. just having the gun is enough.
also are gun owners easyer to find by the police. allowing them to arrest a criminal whit a gun befor he can do what he wants to do whit it.
Criminals are not gentlemen. They won't fight on equal terms.
Gun owners are not easier to find, because nearly all criminally used guns are illegally obtained and, surprise, not listed in any registry except the manufacturer's, and they don't give a crap who uses it.
Why would they not use Kevlar to prevent themselves from being stabbed by their victims?
Criminals are not geniuses and they are not filthy rich. Even in the criminal underworld, Kevlar would be tough to obtain.
Why would they not use Kevlar to prevent themselves from being stabbed by their victims?
this is what sstg mend whit. it must be tiresome to live this way...
The gun is an investment so they can easily get more money later with less risk to themselves.
you think they actually think about investments? we are talking about the lowest part of society here right? most of the robberies are planned on the day they happen. the guy wakes up he counts it's money to see if he can afford what he wants and if it isn't enough they wonder what they are going to rob that day.
How is that different from the majority of robberies now? Very few go in expecting another gun.
if the gun lovers got their way, people should shoot them. if they do not even expect another gun, why would they even think about a investment?
Criminals are not gentlemen. They won't fight on equal terms.
they are not smart either. if you do not provide them a gun so easily. they will not actively spare money and seek 1 to buy.
Gun owners are not easier to find, because nearly all criminally used guns are illegally obtained and, surprise, not listed in any registry except the manufacturer's, and they don't give a crap who uses it.
they are because everyone that has a gun is automatically a criminal. and can be arrested on the spot.
you're excluding competition shooting
shooting whit a ak47 a pumpkin into pieces is not competition shooting. have you actually seen a competition gun once? they are nothing like a normal gun. and can be easily kept legal under heavy control and bureaucracy.
If death as the immediate penalty for robbery (or any crime, for that matter) was entirely guaranteed, crime would virtually stand still. What robber would decide "imma threaten the lives of innocents, take what I can, and die in the process."?
while we are at it. lets also stone, impale, stretch and burn people like in the middle ages.
If you can't handle the emotional stress, don't use it.
your missing the other witnesses in the store or bar
Thus military level safety training should be required to limit those things.
or some self defense classes to do it by hand if your really want stop it. what would cost more? self defense or military level safety training? what about do nothing? it's free and the most safe option.
The robber's weapon could just as easily go off (even accidentally) at any moment, killing any number of innocents.
is this a reason to keep it legal are are you just trying to find a way out?
Doesn't always work. Sometimes they stab/shoot first, then make demands. Other times, they **** their hostages.
then that is their intention. is a said befor, the level of violence is only going up. having a gun wont help you here anyway. so what is the use in having it? it's no reason to keep it legal.
What ranged non-lethal ways, even if they are operated and work correctly every time, are 100% guaranteed to stop someone? Non-lethal ways don't always end the situation. Even police tazers sometimes aren't enough to stop someone. If you hit someone with, say, rubber bullets and they aren't incapacitated, you've just made the only person in the room with a lethal weapon very mad.
non work 100% because 100% is never reachable. some are very effective tho.
but then i still wonder why you want to be the hero, and not make sure you get out alive.
How does driving in a demolition derby on your own property gain those things?
your not seeking the excitement. drive in a actual demolition derby. not on your own property. get a car. reinforce and modify it for safety and strength. and join a actual derby. you will bounce of excitement (if your into it, you might also just poop your pants =P )
Kevlar is quite cheap and relatively easy to obtain. Under $50 for a vest on ebay. Under $600 for a buy-it-now bulletproof jacket/vest combo. A small price to pay to prevent getting stabbed if you've got a career of robbing people.
and can be arrested on the spot.
Only if they're dumb enough to stand still for 20 minutes.
your not seeking the excitement. drive in a actual demolition derby. not on your own property.
What fitness benefit does that have? How is that different from going to a fancy shooting range and firing a 50cal at an exploding target? How is that different than blasting a pumpkin in your backyard? Different people find excitement in different things.
you will bounce of excitement (if your into it, you might also just poop your pants =P )
If you fire a cannon, you'd probably get a similar effect.
then that is their intention. is a said befor, the level of violence is only going up. having a gun wont help you here anyway. so what is the use in having it?
There are times when one person is being stabbed/shot and another person stops the offender.
and not make sure you get out alive.
Sometimes that is the only way to get out alive.
your missing the other witnesses in the store or bar
What other witnesses? According to you, they all either put their heads to the floor or ran away
The USA figured out how to make nukes first, and then set a criteria that must be met before we gave designs to other countries. If other countries got the tech, we tried our best to shut them down. It's the same way with guns
Well Nicho pointed out your historical inaccuracy, I want to point out something you forgot: America is not the policeman of the world. I know the American government, and a surprising number of its citizens think otherwise, but it really isn't. America has no right to interfere with the affairs of other nations except through the proper channels, namely the UN.
Only if they're dumb enough to stand still for 20 minutes.
hmmm.. no.
What fitness benefit does that have?
ever got thrown into all directions for 15 mins? your out of breath after that. your body gets a good exercise.
If you fire a cannon, you'd probably get a similar effect.
not for 15 mins straight.
There are times when one person is being stabbed/shot and another person stops the offender.
there are times the robber starts crying and asks the victim to call the cops? what is your point? there are rare extremes?
Sometimes that is the only way to get out alive.
what does it help if you freeze? and sometimes, yes. most of the time, no.
What other witnesses? According to you, they all either put their heads to the floor or ran away
going to another extreme i c. the perfect scenario to have a gun (like this) does not happen often. beside maybe 1 of the heads down people decided to go make a run for it at the same time you shoot. (if we go in the extreme lets go do it movie style.)
To all you people who use other countries as references to why gun control is good, such as, "Japan has had two gun homicides, and the U.S. had 6." This is a very self explanatory statement, because where there is less guns, there is less gun deaths. However, where there is less guns, there is more violent crime. For example, though there are less guns in Japan, violent crimes are at an all time high. I am going to prove this true. Put yourself in the shoes of a criminal. Because you are a criminal, you have acquired a gun illegally because gun control only makes it harder for good guys to buy guns. You are planning on robbing a house and the killing everyone inside. You have a choice of doing it in a country like the U.S., where there is a very high rate of gun owners, or Japan, where the only option they have is to wait for the police. You choose Japan, because people there cannot defend themselves and you will just kill them all and leave before the police arrive.
For TL;DR's, here's a summary. Gun control takes guns away from good guys, not bad guys. They are called bad guys because they don't follow the law, so what use will it be making another law they won't follow? Also, less guns make targets more attractive to criminals, because they won't be able to defend themselves.
This is a very self explanatory statement, because where there is less guns, there is less gun deaths. However, where there is less guns, there is more violent crime. For example, though there are less guns in Japan, violent crimes are at an all time high. I am going to prove this true. Put yourself in the shoes of a criminal. Because you are a criminal, you have acquired a gun illegally because gun control only makes it harder for good guys to buy guns. You are planning on robbing a house and the killing everyone inside. You have a choice of doing it in a country like the U.S., where there is a very high rate of gun owners, or Japan, where the only option they have is to wait for the police. You choose Japan, because people there cannot defend themselves and you will just kill them all and leave before the police arrive.
In 1989 Japan experienced 1.3 robberies per 100,000 population, compared with 48.6 for West Germany, 65.8 for United Kingdom, and 233.0 for the United States; and it experienced 1.1 murder per 100,000 population, compared with 3.9 for West Germany, 1.03 for England and Wales, and 8.7 for the United States that same year.
In the most recent UNDOC study, it has 0.4 intentional homicides per 100,000, compared to 4.2 in the US.
It really is higher right?
In Japan, the gun ownership is low, and is the same in many of the Western European states, altogether, states that are often lumped in the same category as the US.
For TL;DR's, here's a summary. Gun control takes guns away from good guys, not bad guys. They are called bad guys because they don't follow the law, so what use will it be making another law they won't follow? Also, less guns make targets more attractive to criminals, because they won't be able to defend themselves.
Because besides gun control, other policies, such as clamping down on illegal sources of guns are often used in tandem.
they are because everyone that has a gun is automatically a criminal. and can be arrested on the spot.
Yeah...gun owners are criminals...come, sit down on this stone bench and we'll talk a while about how corrupt that logic is. Some people like shooting with guns, there is no way around it. You can call it irrational, illogical, even, but when it comes down to it, they really don't care. They like the feel of a gun, the way it bucks when firing, the satisfaction of a good hit, any number of likes. You can argue that they could do the same with say, a longbow, like I have, or the like, but such fans of those are more inclined to history or challenge, or just prefer using a bow to a gun.
not for 15 mins straight.
Are you kidding? Some men would happily live out their days firing huge pipes of iron that hurl pieces of metal and/or explosive shells far into the distance. Do you wonder why FPSRussia (Look 'im up if the internet news trawlers passed you by) is so popular?
what does it help if you freeze? and sometimes, yes. most of the time, no.
Some people will freeze, some will blow out the offender's brains in a heartbeat, some will fire and cower away, some will fire wildly, screaming like a harmless madman, some will...some will...the list goes on. Like it as not, a gun in such situations may be a boon. You have to remember the police will arrive after you're stone cold and any bystanders will either be scared, ineffectual because they have no ranged weapon, or will die stupidly trying to save you and being stabbed/shot by an offender.
Some people like shooting with guns, there is no way around it. You can call it irrational, illogical, even, but when it comes down to it, they really don't care. They like the feel of a gun, the way it bucks when firing, the satisfaction of a good hit,
and in a few generations this can be turned around. the love for guns is only there if you have had contact whit guns. if you never had contact whit a gun you can't love them. it takes time. but it sure doesn't have to stay this way.
and you can safely say i find it sensless and stupid.
and in a few generations this can be turned around. the love for guns is only there if you have had contact whit guns. if you never had contact whit a gun you can't love them. it takes time. but it sure doesn't have to stay this way.
and you can safely say i find it sensless and stupid.
(i'm not following the rest)
Have fun getting rid of the Video Game Industry, and a large part of the Entertainment Industry. I bet they'll go real quiet-like.
and in a few generations this can be turned around. the love for guns is only there if you have had contact whit guns. if you never had contact whit a gun you can't love them. it takes time. but it sure doesn't have to stay this way.
and you can safely say i find it sensless and stupid.
(i'm not following the rest)
Sorry for DP. Oh, and the men who give their sons (maybe daughters too) a love of rifle-hunting. And the militant families. And people interested in Militant History.
