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Forums → WEPR → Is it OK to teach evolution in public schools?

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shortstopkid123
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shortstopkid123
20 posts
Nomad

Many parents argue about schools teaching evolution. Creationalists do not support or believe in the theory of evolution. It goes against their beliefs. They do not believe it should be taught because it apposes many peoples' beliefs. Do you think that it should be taught?

Notes:
Lets try not point out certain religions. I am saying creationalists for a reason.

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Xzeno
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Xzeno
2,301 posts
Nomad

I'd go as far as to say evolution is on the same level as gravity;
What, you're saying we don't understand evolution?
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

I'd go as far as to say evolution is on the same level as gravity;

What, you're saying we don't understand evolution?


We have a far better understanding of the mechanisms behind evolution than we do gravity. I mean, as far as gravity is concerned, there's a lot of questions. Not so much with evolution.

Evolution is not proven either should it be taught? Yes, I know that most of creationism is based on faith but evolution is not rock hard either.


1) Evolution has been demonstrated to occur.
2) Literally 99.99% of the scientific community accepts it.
3) It is the basis for modern biology.
4) We have mountains of evidence for it in multiple fields of science.
5) Creationism, even if we were to hypothetically say evolution was incorrect, STILL would not go into a science class. It is not science.
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

Evolution is not proven either should it be taught? Yes, I know that most of creationism is based on faith but evolution is not rock hard either.


As EmperorPalpatine explained, nothing is ever completely proven in science.

Here's a quotation from an essay, The Relativity of Wrong.

The young specialist in English Lit, having quoted me, went on to lecture me severely on the fact that in every century people have thought they understood the universe at last, and in every century they were proved to be wrong. It follows that the one thing we can say about our modern "knowledge" is that it is wrong. The young man then quoted with approval what Socrates had said on learning that the Delphic oracle had proclaimed him the wisest man in Greece. "If I am the wisest man," said Socrates, "it is because I alone know that I know nothing." the implication was that I was very foolish because I was under the impression I knew a great deal.

My answer to him was, "John, when people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."


Give the full essay a read, it will take about 10 minutes. Link.

We don't know everything there is to know about evolution, and some hypothesis will be proven wrong in the future, but we're always moving in the direction of being more right than before.
Xzeno
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Xzeno
2,301 posts
Nomad

We have a far better understanding of the mechanisms behind evolution than we do gravity. I mean, as far as gravity is concerned, there's a lot of questions. Not so much with evolution.
That was the thrust of my statement, yes.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

We have a far better understanding of the mechanisms behind evolution than we do gravity. I mean, as far as gravity is concerned, there's a lot of questions. Not so much with evolution.

Point taken. I just thought that since not even creationists are gonna deny gravity, it sounded logical for an understandable analogy.
Kasic
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Kasic
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Jester

That was the thrust of my statement, yes.


I was merely adding on :P

Point taken. I just thought that since not even creationists are gonna deny gravity, it sounded logical for an understandable analogy.


I'm sure many of us have used the comparison at one time or another.

We don't know everything there is to know about evolution, and some hypothesis will be proven wrong in the future, but we're always moving in the direction of being more right than before.


Exactly. And even if evolution was 100% wrong as we know it, that doesn't make creationism any more valid. The entire debate is one huge-*** red herring, whereby we get distracted trying to prove evolution to the creationists, when instead we should be bringing up points like separation of church and state, how creationism is not science, how it has no place in a science class regardless of evolution's validity, and other similar points.
Xzeno
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Xzeno
2,301 posts
Nomad

I was merely adding on :P
In that case I'm glad you provided an in-depth explanation to those who didn't immediately get the joke.

I don't know. Evolution vs. creation. I never used to care. Then I met people who didn't believe in evolution. It's really sad that that still happens in this society. And that we allow people to say "it's my opinion" to act like they're entitled to their ignorance. Like, people genuinely believe that creationism and evolution are on equal grounds.

There is no debate. Evolution is a fact. Even the acknowledgement that theories are fallible is a red herring. It applies to literally every other scientific fact. Everyone should go check out the snopes link Mage posted on Kasic's profile. It's bananas.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

Exactly. And even if evolution was 100% wrong as we know it, that doesn't make creationism any more valid. The entire debate is one huge-*** red herring, whereby we get distracted trying to prove evolution to the creationists, when instead we should be bringing up points like separation of church and state, how creationism is not science, how it has no place in a science class regardless of evolution's validity, and other similar points.


Another thing that was pointed out to me recently is that with the k12 and under classes, they're job is to teach the scientific consensus. This is to give the student a platform to work off of for when they get into the more competitive areas such as the college and university levels of education.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

Everyone should go check out the snopes link Mage posted on Kasic's profile. It's bananas.

They are only half wrong in one point. Some dinosaurs still live all around us.

But the intent of the question, and all the rest, is catastrophic.

I think this may be interesting here: research done in 2005 that portrays the acceptance of evolution in 34 countries.
I am ashamed that my country is in the lower half.
aknerd
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aknerd
1,416 posts
Peasant

What, you're saying we don't understand evolution?


Speaking of SMBC:
Teach the Conntruhversy

I once met a person, who was my age, a biology major at a well known college, and on an ecology-based abroad program who did not "believe" in evolution. Some of the other people on the program started to argue with him (as people are wont to do), but I just sat back and didn't say anything. If a person who has clearly already had all the evidence presented to him at some point in his life doesn't want to subscribe to what is clearly the more well-evidenced theory, good on him. He will probably never be convinced and arguing would just be a waste of time.

I think we can all agree that the situation is entirely different when we are talking about grade school. Its not a matter of teaching "both sides" and letting people make their own decisions. Only one side has any kind of scientific credibility. There are people out there who believe that there are no such things as irrational numbers, or that the Pythagorean theorem is invalid, but we don't teach these as credible theories in school, do we?

Here's a bonus comic cause its Friday.

teaching is hard
KnightDeclan
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KnightDeclan
478 posts
Nomad

I think teaching kids something that may contradict their religion is bad. JUST SAYIN! If you have a problem with my religion, Kalic, and the other jerks, then don't respond, cuz it will be a stupid comment that I will not listen to.

Kasic
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Kasic
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Jester

I think teaching kids something that may contradict their religion is bad.


Why is it bad to contradict religion? What makes religion so inherently valuable that it is wrong to question the validity of it?

Further, evolution is not contradictory to religion in general. Just very specific beliefs.
KnightDeclan
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KnightDeclan
478 posts
Nomad

My religion is a very specific belief. How would you like it if I came and doubted something you believed so strongly, and was raised to love. I pity you Kasic, I really do. Maybe if you would just stop feeling guilty of your sins, and open up to religion. Maybe you'll be happier. It's bad to put down religion, yes, because my religion is thousands of years older than this hundred year old theory. I have more faith in it, and trust the sources more. When you look at the crazy things that scientists say, and the logical things religion says, you can only turn to one source. Now I know that you're just gonna find some way to try to prove your point, but I know that deep down inside, you crave religion, but you know that you just aren't strong enough to make the sacrifices and hardships. Weak...

Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

Since arguing with you has proven pointless in the past, I'll be brief.

My religion is a very specific belief.


Good for you.

How would you like it if I came and doubted something you believed so strongly, and was raised to love.


That has nothing to do with evolution's validity.

Maybe if you would just stop feeling guilty of your sins, and open up to religion. Maybe you'll be happier.


1) Has nothing to do with this topic.
2) I'm quite happy.

It's bad to put down religion, yes, because my religion is thousands of years older than this hundred year old theory.


1) Irrelevant
2) Has no impact on validity.

When you look at the crazy things that scientists say, and the logical things religion says, you can only turn to one source.


*facepalm*

Yes, religion is so logical...so much so that this statement here is a logical fallacy, " It's bad to put down religion, yes, because my religion is thousands of years older than this hundred year old theory."

Now I know that you're just gonna find some way to try to prove your point, but I know that deep down inside, you crave religion, but you know that you just aren't strong enough to make the sacrifices and hardships. Weak...


1) Another logical fallacy.
2) Off topic.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

How would you like it if I came and doubted something you believed so strongly, and was raised to love.


Please do so. I would rather not believe something that is wrong. Just remember to bring objective verifiable evidence to the table. And do remember your argument will be scrutinized.

Correcting error, even long held error is not a bad thing.

Maybe if you would just stop feeling guilty of your sins, and open up to religion.


Considering a sin is a violation of God's will and Kasic doesn't believe such a being exists. It would be rather hard to feel guilty about it.

It's bad to put down religion, yes, because my religion is thousands of years older than this hundred year old theory.


Age doesn't make something more valid. If it did there would be religions far more valid than yours.

I have more faith in it, and trust the sources more.


So your believing it with out evidence and trusting a colbed together, re-edited, self contradicting, factually inaccurate source more than a heavily evidenced, observed phenomena that has stood up to some of the harshest scrutiny we can possibly throw at it?

When you look at the crazy things that scientists say, and the logical things religion says, you can only turn to one source.


What crazy things would these be and what logical things is this religion saying? You mean logical things like talking snakes, magic spit, This thing...

http://coventryrm.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/cockatrice.png

(yeah it's in there, Isaiah 11:8, Isaiah 14:29, Isaiah 59:5, Jeremiah 8:17. NIV changed the word to viper.)

Or one of my favorites the whole of the human race coming from two people.
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