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kiddslayer12
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kiddslayer12
70 posts
Nomad

I am a christian, i and i strongly belive in my lord jesus christ, and i also belive that if you belive in him and except him as your savior, u will go to heaven. and i also believe that he created the world, not the big bang, or that we came from stupid apes.

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volcanboy
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volcanboy
425 posts
Nomad

@jeol Well corrected, my mistake.

It might not seem possible, but surely it's no problem for God.

And lets say God did create us, but why does that rule out the theory that he may have created us by creating the big bang?

Avorne
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Avorne
3,085 posts
Nomad

Jeol may I remind you that the creation of the universe and the beginnings of life aren't directly linked.

NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

It doesn't seem possible for quadrillions upon quadrillions of molecules (and then some) to come out of an explosion out of a couple of molecules or whatnot. Doesn't that seem fishy?


It sounds just as fishy as God.

No matter what the case, life doesn't come out of an explosion unless it was specifically protected from it. The size doesn't matter in that case either. Even if they were rocks the size of our galaxy, it simply wouldn't be possible. However, saying a creator made us out of nothing makes more sense, 'cause I don't think an explosion can make anything except death. (or a big 'bang'.)


The same can be said about God, a being nobody can witness, creating everything from nothing.

How come God is allowed to come from nothing but the Big Bang isn't? If God is so miraculous that it is impossible to perceive him as outside of time, couldn't we say the same about the Big Bang?

Why is it that we allow God to perform miracles, but we don't allow nature to perform miracles?

I'm not trying to tell you that you are wrong, but you should really keep a more open mind towards what is and is not believable. You shouldn't justify God merely because he is more believable than science, I just can't stand for that. There are other reasons to believe in God, good reasons.
BlackVortex
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BlackVortex
1,360 posts
Nomad

Not gonna read 227 pages but to me the theory of a 'man' sitting on a cloud putting atoms together creating life, earth, water, planets and everything else, seems really retarded, no offence, but I don't and never will believe in God or heaven/hell.
How can you possibly think there is anything else under us than lava and rock? (Obviously not just that, but you know what I mean)
I believe once you die your life just vanishes, humans are just atoms and when we die those atoms just leave and take another form I guess.. not sure what happens, something scientific xD, you don't come back as a pigeon or rabbit..

volcanboy
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volcanboy
425 posts
Nomad

I see what you are saying blackvortex, but do you not wonder how "lava and rock" and even more - why?

BlackVortex
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BlackVortex
1,360 posts
Nomad

wonder how "lava and rock" and even more - why?


That question is way beyond me xD
But if I'm to believe anything it would be Einstein's theory of relativity over 'woman gives birth without sex to the son of a man in the clouds who created earth and life and with all this power still had to take a nap on the 7th day'
At least Einstein's idea has some substance behind it and testing rather than believing the words from a book, that ANYONE could have written.
Just sounds like someone on shrooms decided to write a diary to me.. but each to their own, I'm not scrapping the idea I'm just saying the chances of it being true in my mind is 10000000000000000000000000000/1
volcanboy
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volcanboy
425 posts
Nomad

Well maybe Joseph wasn't been totally honest.

What i'm trying to get across is that why can't the two theorys be linked. Why couldn't God have created the method of creation that einstein finally thought of.

like you said, the question is beyond you and any of us. Can't God just be our personal image of what we thought created us, though we have no idea what it is?

BlackVortex
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BlackVortex
1,360 posts
Nomad

Well maybe Joseph wasn't been totally honest.

What i'm trying to get across is that why can't the two theorys be linked. Why couldn't God have created the method of creation that einstein finally thought of.


What proof is there that a Joseph existed other than writing 2000+ years old?
I guess I'm just a sceptic, I wont believe it until I see solid proof of these things that are written in the Bible or at least some sort of proof to back up an idea of a 'God'.

When you are told the same story by many people I guess you just start to believe it's true, why else do you think kids still get excited on Christmas day, because somebody created the idea of a fat man living in the North Pole riding on a magical sleigh with flying deer jumping into chimneys giving gifts.

Just shows the craziness of some people and how they 'imp' up a simple story about a guy who is a gift-giver to this crazy idea of magical sleigh riding men.
Tooth fairy, Easter Bunny etc.

So what is stopping somebody from creating the image of this 'God'?

Can't God just be our personal image of what we thought created us, though we have no idea what it is?


I would have trouble believing something that is unproven, a book is just not enough to change my mind, need some physical proof xD
314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

How come then we have free will? We can create from resources provided, imagine, think. I doubt those are just because of some atoms somehow against probability coming together.


To survive. We would be as vulnerable as rats if we had not the ability to create. I doubt that they were there put there by some board all powerful kindergartner.

Why the Bible is probably accurate is because it was written by different people over a few millenniums, none having much link to each other except they were either Jewish or Christian. And they all had the same 'crazy idea'; yeah, that seems likely. It has also been translated into a lot of different languages.


Do you know what else has the same situation? Cinderella. There are a dozen cultures that have similar to it and it is written in several languages. Non of the writers had any connection.

They had connections, they all had similar ideas to what there deity was. For example, take the good old Greek gods. They had never even written a book on them, everyone who had no connection to each other wrote stories on the gods. It doesn't make them real. The idea of a singular powerful guy in the sky is not exactly new or inventive, either.

Isn't that the reason for faith? Believing in something you can't see?


There is proof in a ton of stuff I can't see. But "faith" is belief without evidence. If your god had an actual reason to have "faith" as his only source to prove he exists, he either wants most of us to go to hell or is like a child playing hide and seek or peekaboo. With the stake of hell.

Hmm... That sounds about the probability - or even less - than the idea of a big bang...


Not at all... And besides, he was not on shrooms, he was on a form of tree mentioned several times in the Bible.
314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

That sort of sounds like there's a purpose to life, then... If we can create, why would there be nothing on the other side? If you think about it, there is eternity, whether you like it or not. Makes sense that we have free will but die after a short span, then nothing. (no sarcasm noted.) Eternity and free will? Those seem like big pieces to a puzzle...


Not at all. Our ability to create is the equivalent to a bird's ability to fly. The bird can fly, but that does not make flying its purpose in life.

Why WOULD there be something on the other side?

Sure, there is eternity, you just don't think before or after your dead.... You are merely chemicals. You have been chemicals since the beginning of time and you will be to the end, I realize that, but you won't feel once your brain disintegrates.

Does a peace of dust, floating in the breeze, have free will? Would it if it was able to notice things? Would it if it was able to control its path? "Free will" that you have been spewing has been only loosely defined by you. Now think of it this way, if time is truthfully like a river, you can travel down but not up current and in many other ways, then you have no true free will. If you can travel to the future than the future is already decided. And, since time travel has not yet been proven, I will use a Christian logic example. Your god knows what will happen, thus you have no free will. He knows what you will do before you do it, so you don't really decide to do it. The Christian god can not exist on the same plate as free will.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

@ athiest theory: the big bang may have caused our creation, but what caused the big bang?


It's not a atheist theory it's a scientific theory. One theory on the cause of the Big Bang is that it was the result of one of the four forces splitting from the others.
Of course if you think about it everything was just this big hot dense mass. Is it really so hard to see something like going critical that expanding?

@ christian theory: God spent 7 days creating earth, why is that more believable than him doing it with one explosion?


Actually it's not a theory it's an assertion since there is not evidence backing this claim. Also the Big Bang wasn't an explosion, it was more of an expansion. The term Big Bang was originally used as a means to ridicule the theory.

It doesn't seem possible for quadrillions upon quadrillions of molecules (and then some) to come out of an explosion out of a couple of molecules or whatnot.


It was everything condensed into one singularity, not a couple of molecules.

No matter what the case, life doesn't come out of an explosion unless it was specifically protected from it.


The Big Bang theory doesn't deal with the origin of life, that's abiogenesis.

However, saying a creator made us out of nothing makes more sense, 'cause I don't think an explosion can make anything except death. (or a big 'bang'.)


You should at least know what your denouncing as being less plausible before you go and assert something that not only goes against one of the laws of physics and has no evidence backing it up.

I believe once you die your life just vanishes, humans are just atoms and when we die those atoms just leave and take another form I guess.. not sure what happens, something scientific xD, you don't come back as a pigeon or rabbit.


Pretty much correct. Matter/energy doesn't go away. It's not created or destroyed. It simply changes states.

Well maybe Joseph wasn't been totally honest.

Or maybe?...

Soldier: But but he's going to know! I...mean, I got you pregnant!
Marry: Don't worry, he'll buy the story. My husband's an idiot.

What i'm trying to get across is that why can't the two theorys be linked. Why couldn't God have created the method of creation that einstein finally thought of.


Possible
Of course the next step would then ask where did God come from? If he has always existed why not save the step and say that matter/energy has always existed? (paraphrasing Carl Sagan to a more up to date theory) This would at least follow the laws of physics.

like you said, the question is beyond you and any of us. Can't God just be our personal image of what we thought created us, though we have no idea what it is?


Sure but in this case you can pretty much apply it to anything and call it God. Really this would just be inserting the term God onto something that is already defined.

How come then we have free will? We can create from resources provided,


Some would say we don't have free will, but there is another topic on that.
Technically we aren't creating anything we are simply altering the state of what's already there into a usable form.

Isn't that the reason for faith? Believing in something you can't see?


What makes believing in something with no evidence such a good thing to do?

If you think about it, there is eternity, whether you like it or not.


I'd be fine with having an after life, show me proof.
tomertheking
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tomertheking
1,751 posts
Jester

believe once you die your life just vanishes, humans are just atoms and when we die those atoms just leave and take another form I guess


You are made up of atoms. Since those atoms will always act on all the laws of phisics att all times, the only free will you have is what the order of the atoms in the brain will let you do. That pattern is influenced by the electricity the senses send to the brain, the electricity in the brain itself, and the starting positions of the atoms. If you make an exact copy of a person to the atom, then he will move exactly the same way as you do, sinse his atoms will move the same way.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
4,005 posts
Shepherd

Don't make me facepaw you. Just because you don't believe in God doesn't mean you go to hell.


Really?? Huh.. And this whole time I thought Jesus was being serious when he said "I am the way and the light. No one shall reach my father but through me." Guess he was just jerking everyone's chain. Well, I guess I can sleep easier at night knowing that I can live as an atheist, but when I die and am staring at St. Peter outside the 'early gates' I can go "Oh sh*t, it's real. Well, now I believe. Thanks for letting me in."

I do not believe in any "higher deity" but I don't like being called an atheist.


Firstly, that's what you are. By definition if you do not believe in a deity then you an atheist. Secondly, why don't you like being called an atheist? What stigma is attached to it that puts you off?

Atheism might sometimes be over exagerated but it is a belief/ religion in its own way


Atheism is NOT a belief, religion, dogmatic principle, or anything else of that matter. Atheism means 'without belief in a deity'. That's it. Nothing more, and nothing less, can be attributed accurately to atheism.

And it's not over exaggerated, it's misunderstood, under represented, feared, and strawmaned into a multitude of things it is not, has never been, and never could be, by theists and the uninformed.

We can anthropomorphize pretty much anything. Now take something like a heavy thunder storm or volcano. These are things we once didn't understand and would have likely seemed all powerful. To comfort ourselves we would have likely tried to put a familiar face on them (our own). Thus we read into and anthropomorphized these natural disasters, turning them into all powerful being. Over time the stories and myths built up around these "beings" and gods and religion was born.


This.

If that's the case, you can't use prove he's real as an argument.


There is no proof one way or another. There probably never will be. However what we CAN and DO disprove is theistic text, especially when it attempts to comment on things of a scientific nature.

Either you believe despite a lack of evidence, or you choose to be skeptical until there is evidence. Simple as that, and that's why I left my faith and chose atheism. I do not simply accept as fact anything else in my life if there is no supporting evidence, and I decided that I really had no other reason to do so with my faith than I was buying into Pascal's Wager.

For those of you who don't know Pascal's Wager basically states that it is better to live as if there is a God and find out there isn't than to live as if there isn't and find out there is. Basically saying that faith is the safest bet. But if it is not true faith, then it isn't truly faith, and therefor wouldn't matter anyway. So I decided to just start being honest with myself about my thoughts, philosophy, and beliefs.

@ athiest theory: the big bang may have caused our creation, but what caused the big bang?


Nothing. Basically. Go to youtube and search for a video entitled 'The universe from nothing', it is a very informative and fascinating lecture on emerging cosmological science and it explains quite well how our universe was formed, why it is the way it is, and what evidence there is to support the claim. I was so intrigued I seriously watched it 4 times just to catch everything in the video, and have spent the past week researching the background evidence and studies.

Why the Bible is probably accurate is because it was written by different people over a few millenniums, none having much link to each other except they were either Jewish or Christian. And they all had the same 'crazy idea'; yeah, that seems likely. It has also been translated into a lot of different languages.


??? ::scratches head while looking for any scrap of logic::

Soldier: But but he's going to know! I...mean, I got you pregnant!
Marry: Don't worry, he'll buy the story. My husband's an idiot.


HAHAH!!!! Wow mage, thanks for that. You should have put a disclaimer though, cause I had to clean the Dr. Pepper off of my keyboard after it having passed through my sinus cavity as a result of this...
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
4,005 posts
Shepherd

You are made up of atoms. Since those atoms will always act on all the laws of phisics att all times, the only free will you have is what the order of the atoms in the brain will let you do. That pattern is influenced by the electricity the senses send to the brain, the electricity in the brain itself, and the starting positions of the atoms. If you make an exact copy of a person to the atom, then he will move exactly the same way as you do, sinse his atoms will move the same way.


Umm... no. Sorry. That's not at all an accurate representation. The issue here is that we do not respond to stimuli on a solely atomic scale.
deserteagle
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deserteagle
1,633 posts
Nomad

They had connections, they all had similar ideas to what there deity was. For example, take the good old Greek gods. They had never even written a book on them, everyone who had no connection to each other wrote stories on the gods. It doesn't make them real. The idea of a singular powerful guy in the sky is not exactly new or inventive, either.


Christianity is a cut and paste of things far older than it. Jesus copied some of Buddha's ideas and took them for his own. Our idea of Angels is similar to the Norse Valkyries. God himself is modern day Zeus. The cross is also a twisted from of an ancient *Tibetan?* sign for peace. The idea that the Messiah will come again is similar to Gilgamesh.

the only free will you have is what the order of the atoms in the brain will let you do. That pattern is influenced by the electricity the senses send to the brain, the electricity in the brain itself, and the starting positions of the atoms. If you make an exact copy of a person to the atom, then he will move exactly the same way as you do, sinse his atoms will move the same way.


Not quite. If I cloned you, your clone would not act the same way you do. The clone and you may share exactly the same amount of atoms, but he may decide to take a different course of action than you. Free will is the idea that we can control our won destinies. If the clone did the exact same thing as you, then there would be not thing as free will.

I can sleep easier at night knowing that I can live as an atheist, but when I die and am staring at St. Peter outside the 'early gates' I can go "Oh sh*t, it's real. Well, now I believe. Thanks for letting me in."


I would say the same thing, but I wonder if good ol' Pete accepts Visa.

the big bang may have caused our creation, but what caused the big bang?


There should be an easy copy and paste answer for this...
Short summery: form other universes, when one universe undergoes a Bing Crunch, another undergoes a Big Bang. For every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction right?

Soldier: But but he's going to know! I...mean, I got you pregnant!
Marry: Don't worry, he'll buy the story. My husband's an idiot.

lol
Deserteagle approves of this. 9.8/10
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