I am a christian, i and i strongly belive in my lord jesus christ, and i also belive that if you belive in him and except him as your savior, u will go to heaven. and i also believe that he created the world, not the big bang, or that we came from stupid apes.
Also, I guarantee you don't live your life using perspective morality. For example, your friend talks behind your back and destroys your reputation to steal your girlfriend. Do you a.) Say "Who am I to judge him. It all depends on his perspective whether or not he acted morally." b.) realize your friend is @-hole and act accordingly.
Contrary. I fell in love with a girl a few years back; we started to get very close, things were going so very well.. and then she broke my heart. It hurt.. more then anything had ever hurt, and still does. I'm not angry at her though. She went back & started dating her old boyfriend who everyone I knew thought very little of. She had to do what's right for her. She figured it out, dumped him; she's with some other guy these days who's a much better man & we're still friends. So yeah. 'a' for me thanks. She has to look after herself & what she wants, and what she feels is right. Sucks that I didn't fall into that, but that's life.
No, we're not. Okay, catholics believe it to be morally wrong, but is it morally worse then allowing people to contract a disease for which the first world does not posess a cure, much less the third world - meaning realistically, a death sentence. I would arguue it's a malevolent act of cruelty.
Sorry, wasn't trying to be rude. I meant that isn't what the dicussion's about. This has been my problem with birth control too, that while it prevents what you want it to prevent, it causes more sex to occur, and by putting people in that environment, you will decrease the disease at first, and then it will slowly raise.
Nah, there are people who *have* read the bible that can't argue half as well as you can - I still think it's important though; and for me. If I'm going to argue a subject, I better know what it is that I'm discussing =)
True, I might add that since I'm a Catholic, Christianity is also listening to the interpretations from other people. Of course, when they quote things that sound odd to me, I look them up in their context.
This is arriving at my point. If morals are so easy to grasp without it... perhaps the bible (and subsequently) the religion, institutions, churches, and cruel edicts(not to say *all* are cruel) are unnecessary. There are a lot of good and selfless works done by christians - and I have no doubt that without a bible they'd be doing the same things, perhaps have some private spiritual beliefs & live life well.
Not a bad point, but some people do need the actual religion, the masses that interpret it for them, to grasp onto the morals. Not everyone does, and I'm more than happy to watch them do good works without the Bible.
If you're heading out, see you later. I'll probably be back around 3PM tomorrow, so, until then...
Also, I guarantee you don't live your life using perspective morality. For example, your friend talks behind your back and destroys your reputation to steal your girlfriend. Do you a.) Say "Who am I to judge him. It all depends on his perspective whether or not he acted morally." b.) realize your friend is @-hole and act accordingly.
if you picked B then guess what? That's absolute morality. You are judging your friend based on moral ideals that you accept as true for all humans.
Oh please. That is one measly example, AND it is more based on competition and instinct then morality. Think of a better argument to convince me, please, instead of just one instance, an empirical piece of evidence, of which you have insofar failed to provide.
You do realize finding empirical evidence to prove every human lives in terms of absolute morality is impossible. I'd have to study every human. The best I can do is use people I've met in my life as a control group. I imagine you should do the same.
Look around you and see how do people solve problems. First and foremost, they always try to do what makes them happiest. Each human has their hierarchy of what they think makes them happy. Many people think material possessions will make them truly happy. For example: women, alcohol, athletics, looking good, drugs etc. But no one I've ever met or heard of has ever been fully satisfied with material things. But somehow things outside the material realm make people happy also. Why do I feel happy when I help my friend out? Its not because I materially benefit because I don't always. There's some part of me that's wired with a conscience. Its not just enough for me to just follow my conscience either. I have the urge to keep perfecting my conscience towards some goal. Whats the goal? Ultimate Goodness or the pillars of absolute morality.
Need evidence, think who lived a happier life in history: Hitler or Mother Theresa. Hitler ran one of the most powerful countries in the world. He was loved by the vast majority of his people. Almost all of Europe fell under his control. Wealth beyond your wildest dream. Any women he wants he could've gotten. Yet Somehow, he was one of the most unhappy and angry people.
Meanwhile Mother Theresa had suffering all around her. She went into places no one else wanted to be. Slums,neighborhoods the worst of the worst. She didn't put elevators in their centers because the Sister's of Charity would carry the helpless up the stairs. Yet She seemed very happy.
My absolute morality makes all the world make sense. A perspective morality just falls short.
Meanwhile Mother Theresa had suffering all around her. She went into places no one else wanted to be. Slums,neighborhoods the worst of the worst. She didn't put elevators in their centers because the Sister's of Charity would carry the helpless up the stairs. Yet She seemed very happy.
Read an article Mother Theresa said near the end of her life that she was faking it for the sake of presenting her image. It was a Times article.
Here's the article http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1655415-6,00.html
It just says at many points in her life she couldn't feel God's presence. That just means she's human. Most Saints go through this. In fact, even Jesus did in the Garden of Gethsemane when he said "My God, My God why have you forsaken me."
Here's the article http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1655415-6,00.html
yup thats the one
But I don't think there is a need for saints, because most of them do good deeds on the outside yet they are not very good on the inside (spiritually)
With morality concerned, Christians do not necessarily have fantastic morals. With crime concerned there is no distinguishing factor. I recall the BTK (beat, torture, kill) killer was a church going man, many of the people surrounding him didn't think that he would ever do something like that.
With morality concerned, Christians do not necessarily have fantastic morals. With crime concerned there is no distinguishing factor. I recall the BTK (beat, torture, kill) killer was a church going man, many of the people surrounding him didn't think that he would ever do something like that.
Yep, Christians are human just like atheists and everyone else. The reason you should be christian though is that it gives you a goal/purpose to work towards.
I meant that isn't what the dicussion's about. This has been my problem with birth control too, that while it prevents what you want it to prevent, it causes more sex to occur, and by putting people in that environment, you will decrease the disease at first, and then it will slowly raise.
Well, not necessarily. There are a lot of topics that cover differences between Christianity & Atheism - I'd say this is definitely one of them. And the use of condoms isn't all about STI prevention - it's also about family planning. I know people who are married & still use condoms because they're not ready for children - yet. But, they are married, they love each other, and want to have some fun. I guess I just don't see that as a sin. I mean; I play video games, I watch movies, I read books, I train physically, I paint models, I play guitar, I have stimulating discussion with people - I just don't keep 'sex' in a category of it's own, it gets lumped in with all of the other fun things to do. At any rate; I think you're probably right - we're kind of reaching the end of what we can talk about with regards to them without flogging a dead horse.
@ Drschust
It just says at many points in her life she couldn't feel God's presence. That just means she's human.
I'd agree. She's only human. She's not a saint, she doesn't provide a particularly stunning example of what we should all be like. She received a lot of criticism for how she spent the donation money - opening new hospices to spread the faith instead of using the money to assist with medical treatment or alleviating poverty.
The reason you should be christian though is that it gives you a goal/purpose to work towards.
The reason I enjoy being an atheist is because I can find goals of my own to work towards instead of following one like a lamb.
I believe God, Allah, whoever the hell you believe in, both exist and do not exist at the same time. If no one were to believe in a monotheistic/polytheistic religion, the celestial being associated with it would cease to exist.
You do realize finding empirical evidence to prove every human lives in terms of absolute morality is impossible. I'd have to study every human. The best I can do is use people I've met in my life as a control group. I imagine you should do the same.
That is my point. There is no evidence. No hard, reliable evidence. ----------
First and foremost, they always try to do what makes them happiest.
Not necessarily. ----------- The rest of that paragraph was not dealing with morality, it is dealing with what makes them happy. You're conflating emotion and morality. ---------
p.issed
Pissed isn't censored :P -------- An example of perspective morality. A Christian's morals would be to follow the Bible and accept Christ as your savior and spread the word of the Christian God. An atheist's morals would not be based on that.
