I am a christian, i and i strongly belive in my lord jesus christ, and i also belive that if you belive in him and except him as your savior, u will go to heaven. and i also believe that he created the world, not the big bang, or that we came from stupid apes.
That doesn't work, because God may or may not exist.
Thats what I'm alluding to. In order for morality to exist, God must exist.
Yep. But still, what would establish the absolute right and wrong? How would we know what it would be?
First of all, humans are wired with a natural morality. This is the morality most atheists use.(Golden rule, Lieing is bad,...etc.). But, natural morality isn't perfect so Jesus came to earth to straighten things out.
There is a right and wrong based on what that person would believe in.
If my personal moral code was I'm always right. Then am I morally perfect.
Thats what I'm alluding to. In order for morality to exist, God must exist.
I'll I'm getting out of this statement is that you use god to justify something you don't necessarily understand. We don't know why we have morality, so something else is used to explain it. Its just as easy to explain morality with something else, like its beneficial to a society to work together with positive morals, and so that developed as humans evolved into civilization.
First of all, humans are wired with a natural morality. This is the morality most atheists use.(Golden rule, Lieing is bad,...etc.). But, natural morality isn't perfect so Jesus came to earth to straighten things out.
If that were true, we'd have a perfect world, or at least portions of it that were perfect. No one within the Christian faith, or anyone in the world, is perfect when it comes to morality. All the scandals that have been taking place recently show that that's not true. I know plenty of people who are Christian that have a much, much lower sense of morals than me, so I doubt that faith has a difference in morals, or that Jesus created perfect morals. Perfect morals would result in a perfect world from human to human at least, and we wouldn't have crime and war, which we have all too much of.
If my personal moral code was I'm always right. Then am I morally perfect.
You could think that way, and you'd be right. The way morality is really judged though is by other people. You could think whatever you do is the right thing to do, but the people around you might see it differently. You can justify anything you want, but its not necessarily up to you to define whats right and wrong. (No, its not up to God or Jesus either). If it were, don't you think we'd have less problems in the world? People who pray and believe in god still suffer as much as those who don't, and still have to control their own morals in order to live.
The way morality is really judged though is by other people.
The British judged George Washington as bad was he morally wrong? Thomas Moore died for what he stood for against the British too. Was he morally wrong too? Was Hitler morally right because his advisers and most of Germany agreed with him? Was Martin Luther King Jr. wrong because people disagreed with him?
Its just as easy to explain morality with something else, like its beneficial to a society to work together with positive morals, and so that developed as humans evolved into civilization.
So was enslaving African Americans right since it was beneficial to society? Is killing the elderly and weak morally right since they no longer contribute to society? Is destroying other civilizations wrong if they're in the way of your civilization(native americans)?
If that were true, we'd have a perfect world, or at least portions of it that were perfect. No one within the Christian faith, or anyone in the world, is perfect when it comes to morality. All the scandals that have been taking place recently show that that's not true. I know plenty of people who are Christian that have a much, much lower sense of morals than me, so I doubt that faith has a difference in morals, or that Jesus created perfect morals. Perfect morals would result in a perfect world from human to human at least, and we wouldn't have crime and war, which we have all too much of
First, what is this reference to a perfect world? A "erfect world" could only exist under my absolute morality. Its impossible under your societal morals because who defines what a perfect society is?
Secondly, I agree that no one has perfect morals with the exception of Jesus and Mary. You probably do have better morals than a lot of your Christian friends since you listen to your natural morals better than they listen to their christian morals. The point I'm arguing is that if you were able to have perfect Christian morals then you would have perfect morals. Due to original sin this is impossible though. Even though you can get close.
The British judged George Washington as bad was he morally wrong? Thomas Moore died for what he stood for against the British too. Was he morally wrong too? Was Hitler morally right because his advisers and most of Germany agreed with him? Was Martin Luther King Jr. wrong because people disagreed with him?
Sure, Washington was responsible for the deaths of a *lot* of British soldiers and patriots. I'm sure England (country of my ancestry) wasn't terribly pleased about his actions. That's a classic case of morality being specific to your perspective.
You know, before he started really hammering on jews & starting wars, Adolf Hitler was an incredible leader for Germany. All of the other european countries were in a huge economic hole (the great depression) which came on in the aftermath of the first world war. Germany was being dragged out of it because of Hitler's economic & social reforms. When Germany went to war, the people felt they were in the right - they were taking back the land that was taken from them in the treaty of versailles & continuing the great tradition of imperialism which had been going on for hundreds of years with other countries and their empires. Spain, England, France - now Germany was to be the best. It sparked a significant amount of national pride & belief in what they were working towards.
So was enslaving African Americans right since it was beneficial to society?
Again, for the people at the time? Yeah, it really was. And those people were more diligent about religion then we'll ever be in this day & age. We don't do it anymore though... strange. As if, morality of the species had changed since then and is not absolute.
As for the presence of morality somehow being proof of the existence of god, it's absolutely not sufficient. The scientific reason as to why a concept of morality has succeded with humans is the same reason why humans get uneasy in the dark, or 'feel like they're being watched', or use tools. The groups of humans that developed those skills, paranoia regarding safety, or work together for the betterment of an entire tribe instead of just individually, has been highly genetically successful. That makes rational sense, whereas attributing it to something imaginary does not.
ight so what u guys are doing is pretty much having a battle between religions... Which is right??? Well none of them are I have to say. As a catholic I'm supposed to believe in God... I have lost alot of faith in this religion thow, and have begun to feel more and more hate towards the rules and laws our Church continues to make... They are becoming kinda stupid to be honest. But at the end of the day it's just alot easier for me to think that there is good somewhere, and it gives me hope that when I die I'll have a good place to go to. I mean It's alot easier than wondering wtf is going to happen to me when I die. But then again it does bring on the next point, it is kinda putting alot on the line believing in something that we know nothing about... Perfect examples are in the movie religulous. Not to mention that we are born with sin?? That is just stupid, saying that already as we are being made in the womb we have commited some huge beef with God... I mean come on, its blashpemy and stupid brain washing sh't trying to convert others to Christianty... It's a dumb religion, but I was raised catholic. I don't go to church, I dont pray, but I believe there is something greater than us all out there... It just helps me to sleep at night to be honest.. Then there is Atheism... Which in all honesty probably makes more sense, but athiests can give it a bad name (no offense its just like all other religions). Not to mention I'd rather not think that when I die i'm going to become a plant or tree... Cuz then I'll get chopped down and used as paper in the bible or something =P. But anyways there is no point in arguing religions.. Its like saying Calgary vs San Fransisco... wtf is the point to it? Everybody has there own beliefs, and no matter how much we argue its not gonna change sh't.
But at the end of the day it's just alot easier for me to think that there is good somewhere, and it gives me hope that when I die I'll have a good place to go to. I mean It's alot easier than wondering wtf is going to happen to me when I die.
Whenever I think about death, yeah, it kinda freaks me out. On the other hand though, I'm not afraid of it. Sure, its weird to think about, but on the other hand there's something nice about the unknown, not the absolute belief by religions in heaven and hell. Besides, heaven would become hell if you spent an eternity there, no matter how good it was, because at some point everything would be done and become boring.
Not to mention I'd rather not think that when I die i'm going to become a plant or tree... Cuz then I'll get chopped down and used as paper in the bible or something
Whatever you want to believe when your an atheist you can. Some people might think that, but that's not an absolute belief of atheists or anything like that. I can believe whatever I want about what happens after death, and change my opinion every day without it being blasphemy.
Um, im not sure if this is about which choice is right, but I dont really care what religion someone is as long as they are a good person. It is only really partly based on whether you are christian or not for getting into heaven, because you have to be a genneraly "good" human being. Bad morals, theft, murder, any of those things can get you into Hell, and choices oposite those of sinners will get you to Heaven. And still, sinners can be saved in order to be accepted into Heaven. So it isnt really all just about your religious choice, its whether you are a just or corrupt human being. Besides, I'm a christian, and I believe that many people of my choice of religion have been corrupt. An example would be the Knights Templar. They c;aimed to fight for christ and the lord, but in my opinion, they were more like christian extreemists, similar to religious extreemists today, terrorizing other religions because they believed it was what their god wanted them to do. So I don't really think there is a right or wrong answer, just so long as you live your life for a purpose greater than that of theives and scoundrals.
Um, im not sure if this is about which choice is right, but I dont really care what religion someone is as long as they are a good person. It is only really partly based on whether you are christian or not for getting into heaven, because you have to be a genneraly "good" human being. Bad morals, theft, murder, any of those things can get you into Hell, and choices oposite those of sinners will get you to Heaven. And still, sinners can be saved in order to be accepted into Heaven. So it isnt really all just about your religious choice, its whether you are a just or corrupt human being. Besides, I'm a christian, and I believe that many people of my choice of religion have been corrupt. An example would be the Knights Templar. They c;aimed to fight for christ and the lord, but in my opinion, they were more like christian extreemists, similar to religious extreemists today, terrorizing other religions because they believed it was what their god wanted them to do. So I don't really think there is a right or wrong answer, just so long as you live your life for a purpose greater than that of theives and scoundrals.
I'm much inclined to agree with your post poisonarrow - one of the problems I do run into though is when I am frequently accosted to convert. I mean, I'm sure they're 'good' people, but why do they have to spread it around?
Atheism is something I subscribe to, and I do it privately in my every day life - I take this forum to be an exception because I enjoy discussion and philosophy & want to partake in it. Be it those Jehovah's witnesses, or people I meet on the bus, or at social gatherings, and even work - so many people are keen on me rolling over throwing my arms up and yelling 'raise jesus!' I wouldn't have an issue with people having private spiritual beliefs, but they can't keep it to themselves.
I agree. It isn't really concidered wrong for someone to convert people to their religion, but that doesn't mean that those people should be inconciderate of the choices other people have made in their lives as christians or atheists, or whatever other religion the people might follow.
