I am a christian, i and i strongly belive in my lord jesus christ, and i also belive that if you belive in him and except him as your savior, u will go to heaven. and i also believe that he created the world, not the big bang, or that we came from stupid apes.
You are seeing the Holocaust and eugenics through your opinion. Some people would take no issue. Morality is dependent on perspective.
True, but wouldn't you agree that there's a basic absolute perspective, maybe varying depending on the actual situation (killing in self-defense, for example), but a basic absolute perspective on morality that we should have, even if not everyone has it?
Ideals hmmm.... Like absolute truths of whats right and wrong regardless of time or place. Sounds like absolute morality.
I agree with you trends change in whats morally "accepted". But what doesn't change is whether or not the action is morally "right". Whether gay marriage is morally right or wrong is not a matter of raising hands and voting. It is either morally right or morally wrong regardless of what the government says. The Holocaust was supported by the German government and Eugenics in the 1940's was "accepted". But both those actions are wrong and evil regardless of time and place in history.
Absolute morality - if you'd like to think in that way, that's fine - but getting back to the subject at hand (religion) don't confuse that we get that sense of absolute morality from god or religion. The bible is rife with discrimination, slavery, and violence - definitely not where that sense of 'absolute' morality is coming from.
I'm glad you brought up the german holocaust. Were you aware that the pope supported Mussolini and Hitler? Additionally, the current pope was a member of the Hitler-jugend. Hitler himself, despite how christianity & catholocism try to distance themselves these days by painting him an atheist, it's not quite so cut & dry; he's been quoted supporting religion, but also quoted bashing it. The latter more so in his early years. I wonder where the church's sense of morality was there?
Oh.. right. It was getting Mussolini to declare the Vatican an independant state so the catholic church had an undisputed center of power. Classy.
True, but wouldn't you agree that there's a basic absolute perspective, maybe varying depending on the actual situation (killing in self-defense, for example), but a basic absolute perspective on morality that we should have, even if not everyone has it?
One thing I also wanted to address before I dash for a bit -
Just remember though, without suffering there would never be healing. Without evil there would be no good and without doubt, no faith.
This is the biggest problem that I had with Mother Teresa. Her.. home for the sick & dying in Calcutta was not a hospital. She didn't help people. The patients didn't receive medicine or assistance. They simply went there to die. The conditions of the hospital were unsanitary, the bathrooms are communal & not sealed off from the regular living quarters. It was her speculation that humans get closest to Jesus by witnessing abject suffering.
She received plenty of donations from around the world (including some from Haitian tyrants who were keeping their own people in poverty to live in luxury) but none of that money went towards comforting & assisting those in need. Some 'saint'.
I wonder where the church's sense of morality was there?
You've heard of the Milgrim experiment, right? People shocking people because they were told to do so. Well, in a way, this might explain where the Church's sense of morality was. Hitler hid what he was doing very well up until the end, and sucking up to the Church got them on his side. That's probably why he only opposed their views in his earlier days. More to the point, though. I think being paid respect, which (not to be a pessimist) is not something I hear too often on Catholicism, made the Church believe that whatever his actions and reasons were, they were legitmate. Hitler played mind games, and he did a very good job. I'm certain that you wouldn't call the Germans evil because of what Hitler did, right? So I wouldn't call Catholicism evil because of what a Pope did.
What I'm trying to show everyone is perspective morality is as useful as no morality.
For instance: Gay marriage right or wrong? depends on your perspective. Robbing old ladies for no reason? depends on your perspective. Holocaust? depends on your perspective. Abortion? depends on your perspective.
Perspective morality solves no problems and effectively kills reasoning itself.
Further, ideals change very little from country to country. There's no country where Cowards are praised. Yeah there are small minute differences in the way things work. For instance, certain countries have more than one wife. Notice that no country finds it okay to have as many wives as you want. There is no country where killing someone for no reason is looked well upon. Thats because there are certain truths that are beyond time
Yeah, you're right. I just thought that there was a morality that should be held by everyone, even if we don't know it. But "absolute" is the wrong word.
Gay marriage right or wrong? depends on your perspective. Robbing old ladies for no reason? depends on your perspective. Holocaust? depends on your perspective. Abortion? depends on your perspective.
all of those statements are correct. Different people have different morals and different views. --------
Perspective morality solves no problems and effectively kills reasoning itself.
Only if you make logic decisions based on morality. ------- Just because something is useless doesn't mean it's false. ---------
Further, ideals change very little from country to country. There's no country where Cowards are praised. Yeah there are small minute differences in the way things work. For instance, certain countries have more than one wife. Notice that no country finds it okay to have as many wives as you want. There is no country where killing someone for no reason is looked well upon. Thats because there are certain truths that are beyond time
Main reason: I can't think of any religion that condones killing for no reason. Maybe killing for an excuse *coughinthenameofGodcoughcough* but not for a reason. ----------
Further, ideals change very little from country to country.
Evidence or it's false. -----------
Notice that no country finds it okay to have as many wives as you want.
See above. ----------
There's no country where Cowards are praised.
Not necessarily true. Evidence. Stop making outrageous claims without backing them up. Kthxbai. --------------
Yeah, you're right. I just thought that there was a morality that should be held by everyone, even if we don't know it. But "absolute" is the wrong word.
The funny thing is that that statement comes from your perspective morality :P
The funny thing is that that statement comes from your perspective morality :P
Ahh! My brain hurts. You really know how to make people think. I'll take one more shot at this. Logically, from the perspective of one who is always right about moral issues, wouldn't there only be one perfect sense of morality for situations (taking into account, like I said before, killing in self-defense, etc.)?
Ahh! My brain hurts. You really know how to make people think. I'll take one more shot at this. Logically, from the perspective of one who is always right about moral issues, wouldn't there only be one perfect sense of morality for situations (taking into account, like I said before, killing in self-defense, etc.)?
*takes off fea-wait. . .what? I lost the lord hat! Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! :C ----------- But, that person would have their own perspective on morality. And because of that, there is no 'absolute morality.'
But, that person would have their own perspective on morality. And because of that, there is no 'absolute morality.'
You win. I don't think I can describe what I'm saying. I'm not even sure how this discussion came out of the Christianity vs Atheism thread. Everyone has morality. :/
I love reading everyones opinion. It gives me a perspective on how everyone thinks. I am christian but im open to viewpoints. One thing i always ponder... In the Bible it states there is no house of stone that is "Gods house" but everything is. Something along those lines. Why do we need churches to go to EVERY single Sunday and other day in the US? Why can't we worship him at our home , etc.
Maybe killing for an excuse *coughinthenameofGodcoughcough* but not for a reason.
I think I've spoken with you about that...I'm surprised that you are still using it in your arguments.
In the Bible it states there is no house of stone that is "Gods house" but everything is. Something along those lines.
Everything is what? You need to finish the sentence.
Why do we need churches to go to EVERY single Sunday and other day in the US? Why can't we worship him at our home
People need fellowship. Also, you don't have to go to church every Sunday to be a Christian. You are exaggerating when you say "EVERY...other day." Also, you are meant to worship God all the time...in other words, you are supposed to leave room in your thoughts for God.
I think I've spoken with you about that...I'm surprised that you are still using it in your arguments.
. . .Where? When? I'm confuzzled. Besides, there HAVE been religious persecutions where the people were 'killing in the name of God.' Evidence: dis articel rite heer! Not in the Christian God necessarily, but in a god or gods. -------------
People need fellowship. Also, you don't have to go to church every Sunday to be a Christian. You are exaggerating when you say "EVERY...other day." Also, you are meant to worship God all the time...in other words, you are supposed to leave room in your thoughts for God.
That's a fair thing to say. Churches cause psychological unity in religious people.
