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R1a2z3e4
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R1a2z3e4
116 posts
Shepherd

Humans are the most intelligent species in the world, don't you agree ?
You and me are the best creatures made by the god, don't you agree ?

The god given us many things because he hope the humans I have created will go to the earth and will do many good things !

But see what is going on today's world, we are doing misuse of powers given us by the god, don't you agree ?

By seeing this a question is arsing in my mind = Is this the end of Humanity ?

What you think about this ? Can we prevent this ?

  • 332 Replies
FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
3,171 posts
Duke

For instance :- One boy who is very bad in behaviour, scolded many times by the teachers, parents or other elders. But still no change in his behaviour. This means its us who make us.


No. It means that their scolding was misapplied, as it failed to correct the behaviour.

No God did not created the devil. Lucifer himself became a devil as I said its us who make us. Maybe god have given punishment to the Lucifer for his works but he still don't get it and he choosed the way of distruction. Anyways can you tell me who created the God?


If God created Lucifer, and Lucifer became the devil, God caused the devil to exist. If God is all-knowing, He did so intentionally. What part of this are you not understanding?

Monotheists generally claim that God created Himself as well as everything else.
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
9,439 posts
Jester

I said only think (imagine) but you are taking it as in real life.

The problem is that you took it a step further and postulated that the concept applies to reality.

"The present" is past for the future only.

No. As you read this in what you perceive as "the present", the light took time to reach your eyes. The actual moment is gone before you experience it.

I don't said that about education I said it about moral values.

Are you saying that teachers/parents can't give a "wrong" moral interpretation?

But at that time the people were not so smart as compaired to today's date, at that time they easlily believes what someone says.

Just because people can access more information doesn't mean they can't be wrong.

Its us who make us.
For instance :- One boy who is very bad in behaviour, scolded many times by the teachers, parents or other elders. But still no change in his behaviour. This means its us who make us.

It's chemicals that make us.
For instance :- A paranoid schizophrenic takes his antipsychotic medication and his hallucinations subside.
This means it's chemicals that make us.

Its us who make us.

Provide evidence. A hypothetical doesn't count.

Anyways can you tell me who created the God?

Man, in a desperate attempt to justify an existence that is without inherent meaning or purpose.

But also sometimes good is less powerful that bad but the efforts of good makes him win.

If they are truly equal, there can be no winner. And how did you determine that one was "good"?
zombinator2000
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zombinator2000
34 posts
Farmer

Popping in for a second...

"Its us who make us.
For instance :- One boy who is very bad in behaviour, scolded many times by the teachers, parents or other elders. But still no change in his behaviour. This means its us who make us."

This is an Anecdotal Fallacy. It's one data point, it's not &quotroof" of anything.


As they say, exceptions don't make the rule.

Kennethhartanto
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Kennethhartanto
241 posts
Constable

If people do bad because of the devil, and God intentionally created or caused the devil to exist, God is bad.


i have to disagree with this, because what i think is even though God created the devil intentionally, that doesn't mean he is bad. we don't even know his intentions (if he is there), which is one of the criterion in my country i live in to be classified as "bad".

Yes, I know about it. As I said "no one is perfect" so I agree that even elders make mistakes. But at that time the people were not so smart as compared to today's date, at that time they easily believes what someone says.
Here our common sense lies, how efficiently we can distinguish between good or bad (often referred smartness).


in the bold part, you said that people are not as smart as today. that i can agree on, but that sentence implies that you are evading from confirming that mistakes happen. instead, i got the feeling that you are trying to excuse your "elders mistake. which is not going to happen in my watch.

There are some beliefs that refers that the Truth and Lie are like enemy brothers the same can be apply on God and Devil


Truth and lie CAN be assumed like enemy brothers, because in the context of the words power to others, they are about the same weight. none of them also created each other. But in the case of God and Devil, they are nothing like enemy brothers, because God created the devil and he CAN destroy Devil, yet the Devil cannot kill God. just read the book of revelations.

don't said that about education I said it about moral values.


what difference does it make? if a teacher can be wrong about education which is essentially what he/she does best, what makes the same person impervious to mistakes in teaching moral values?

Its us who make us.
For instance :- One boy who is very bad in behaviour, scolded many times by the teachers, parents or other elders. But still no change in his behaviour. This means its us who make us.


if it IS us who make us, then why do we need god anyway? i'm sorry if i sound a little atheistic, but that sentence literally negates your whole argument and attempts to justify your belief that god is nice, he created everything, and knows everything. So i have to ask this question, if what you said is true, then why do we really need to worship god, pray for his power to help us in accomplishing what we want, why do we even need god at all ?!

You just negated all my prayers to god, literally.

No God did not created the devil. Lucifer himself became a devil as I said its us who make us. Maybe god have given punishment to the Lucifer for his works but he still don't get it and he choosed the way of distruction. Anyways can you tell me who created the God?


God created Lucifer and then he became a fallen angel a.k.a devil. that in itself implies that god created Lucifer. for your second question, I think God is made by another God in the dawn of time, before that the "another god" is also created by another being called God or deity, and so on.

"God is all powerful and all knowing" that is according to us because we only worship to god.
If you will ask to a person who worship devil, he will definetely say that "devil is all powerful and all knowing". I believe that the God and Devil are of same strength. But also sometimes good is less powerful that bad but the efforts of good makes him win.


1. there is no such thing as a person worshiping devil as a deity, that is just a propaganda made by the Vatican. As someone's god can be another person's devil ( as in the case of the Jewish God), i can assure you that this part is true. I'll even elaborate if you object to this
2. the bolded sentence is clearly wrong, because if they are about the same strength, they will negate each other. it's going to be like antimatter versus matter if they are the same strength
3. therefore, you just negate your last argument that good will triumph over evil because of their efforts.
09philj
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09philj
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Jester

there is no such thing as a person worshiping devil as a deity,


Although there are many, such as myself, who follow the ideals behind the devil atheistically.

just read the book of revelations.


...Seriously? The book of revelation reads like a description of a bad trip. Even in the largely metaphorical Bible, it stands out as being odd.
FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
3,171 posts
Duke

i have to disagree with this, because what i think is even though God created the devil intentionally, that doesn't mean he is bad. we don't even know his intentions (if he is there), which is one of the criterion in my country i live in to be classified as "bad".


Can evil be created with good intentions by a being that knows exactly what it's doing? Establishing intent is relevant for those who make mistakes. If God creates something that becomes evil, He's either made a grievous error, or He intended it from the start.
Kennethhartanto
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Kennethhartanto
241 posts
Constable

Can evil be created with good intentions by a being that knows exactly what it's doing?


well, at some times it can. in case you are wondering how i derived my opinion from, it is from the fact that most of humans invention are never made to fulfill the actual purpose it was made today. instead most of them arise to fulfill someone's attempt to achieve something i.e out of need of the time of it's creation, which often changes from time to time. i'll give examples:

1. the locomotive was formerly used to draw water from the English mines, not carrying people as it did today.
2.the gunpowder wasn't created to kill people in the first place. instead it fuels fireworks and the like, which i think is pretty different to what is eventually used for.
3. fire is most probably created to warm stone age people in the first place, which is very different to what it was used today.

similarly, i think that evil, corruption and the like WAS created by God to fulfill a very different need, now currently lost in time, since it having existed before humans. so because God created the concept of good and bad, before that there IS no good and bad; God is neither good or bad. that's what i think about this subject
FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
3,171 posts
Duke

similarly, i think that evil, corruption and the like WAS created by God to fulfill a very different need, now currently lost in time, since it having existed before humans. so because God created the concept of good and bad, before that there IS no good and bad; God is neither good or bad. that's what i think about this subject


This cannot apply where the creator knows exactly what the result will be, but goes ahead and does it anyway. Whatever happens must be as intended. Nor can God be exempt from His own moral system. When it came to exist is irrelevant. It exists now; if God doesn't abide by it, He is an immoral despot.
Kennethhartanto
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Kennethhartanto
241 posts
Constable

This cannot apply where the creator knows exactly what the result will be, but goes ahead and does it anyway. Whatever happens must be as intended. Nor can God be exempt from His own moral system. When it came to exist is irrelevant. It exists now; if God doesn't abide by it, He is an immoral despot.


As i have stated, we don't really know what purpose does evil serve in the past. so His intended result might be very different to the ones we accept now as it's "result". so you can say that i agree with what you say as "whatever happens must be as intended". But in those times, when there is no one to "do" evil ( i presume that evil and it's counterpart standardization are created before anything else minus the creation of the universe. so you can say that i regard both good and evil as an "invention&quot except God himself, He may created it to serve a purpose then. we just happened to misuse evil when there are us and other religious creatures. maybe the intended outcome in creating a moral system is to benefit God in some kind. maybe to strengthen His position. we just don't know.

And of course God was "victim" to it's own moral system. it has to abide to it and this was shown in parts of the bible. try reading the book of Psalms and you'll see what i meant. so your assumption that God is an immoral despot because he makes rules and not following it is a certain incorrect. Also this also coincides with what i say about God is neither good or bad, because He is created before his own moral system that He use. i just forgotten to emphasize the time frame of His neutrality. Before He made the moral system (his second/third? "invention&quot, he is a neutral deity with neither good or bad aspects. when he made it though, he HAD to abide to it, because if not, he would not be respected by his creation and there would be no prophets and the bible ( if you assume that He exist ). because there IS prophets and the bible ( again, assuming his existence ), it follows that God was following his own rules.

Although there are many, such as myself, who follow the ideals behind the devil atheistically.


Surely you aren't saying that the atheism is worshiping the devil's ideals right? if i recall, atheism is a lack of believe in any form of God and it's rules and the like. so your argument makes no sense to me.

...Seriously? The book of revelation reads like a description of a bad trip. Even in the largely metaphorical Bible, it stands out as being odd.


Just read it dude, a piece of it. And yes, i AM serious about this. there is no description whatsoever in which the devil killed or defeated God. God always won ( somehow ). so this supports my argument that God is far more superior to the devil.
09philj
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09philj
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Jester

Surely you aren't saying that the atheism is worshiping the devil's ideals right? if i recall, atheism is a lack of believe in any form of God and it's rules and the like. so your argument makes no sense to me.


Go here. Read our rules and statements. Should make things clear.
FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
3,171 posts
Duke

He may created it to serve a purpose then. we just happened to misuse evil [...]


In accordance with our design. And who was in charge of that design?

You can't work around it. Something has to give when you subject this to critical analysis. God cannot be benevolent/benign, competent, all-knowing, supreme, and the creator of everything, with or without the inclusion of Himself.

so your assumption that God is an immoral despot because he makes rules and not following it is a certain incorrect.


On the contrary, it is neither incorrect, nor even an assumption. It is the necessary consequence of what you stated previously; that God is exempt from being good or bad because they are His own inventions.

because there IS prophets and the bible ( again, assuming his existence ), it follows that God was following his own rules.


That doesn't follow logically. If sadness causes rainclouds to cry, we should see rain when they become depressed. Because it rained yesterday, does it follow that the clouds were depressed?
danielo
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danielo
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Peasant

Most of the original bible did one crime or another. Moses diobeyed god for one exmple (when he hit a rock with his staff instead of touching it to pure water out of it). Also, god in the original bible is an amorphic entity. He is no man nor women, and not use the same rules of "time space and morality" as ours. Msostly the fanfics (aka nee testiment and Dante writens and so on) made god more human like. There is no devil as well. The devil is a cheap device to gather worshipers.

One reason why i prefer to belive in FSM. He is so much cooler then god.

Kennethhartanto
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Kennethhartanto
241 posts
Constable

Go here. Read our rules and statements. Should make things clear.


your link is flawed, i can't access it. or maybe my country blocked it.

In accordance with our design. And who was in charge of that design?

You can't work around it. Something has to give when you subject this to critical analysis. God cannot be benevolent/benign, competent, all-knowing, supreme, and the creator of everything, with or without the inclusion of Himself.


Of course god was in charge of his own design. So it is not in accordance to our design, rather His design ( assuming his existence and he has powers that Christians believe ).

And what that has to give is His neutrality. because He created a moral system of good and bad, he lost that neutrality and forever shackled in that rules that He made.

On the contrary, it is neither incorrect, nor even an assumption. It is the necessary consequence of what you stated previously; that God is exempt from being good or bad because they are His own inventions.


You don't read the whole part of my comment, do you? I said that God is neutral from the concept of Good and Bad only prior to it's creation. i had said that in the last comment.

That doesn't follow logically. If sadness causes rainclouds to cry, we should see rain when they become depressed. Because it rained yesterday, does it follow that the clouds were depressed?


Nice assumption. but that does not scale to what i was saying to you. If God was stripped from His very nature that made him worshiped ( again, assuming he exist), then why do you think He was respected in the first place? Our Believer's concept of God would had never exist if there was no one to transmit that idea in the first place in a nice and good manner ( assuming His existence, if he wanted to made a religion in His name, he would need first respect from his own converts, take that away and the religion crumbles like a house of cards )

One reason why i prefer to belive in FSM. He is so much cooler then god.


what is FSM?
09philj
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09philj
2,825 posts
Jester

your link is flawed, i can't access it. or maybe my country blocked it.


The link works, so it's the government. In that case, look here instead. I may be sliding off topic a bit, but satanism is a useful study in the context of humanity.
FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
3,171 posts
Duke

Of course god was in charge of his own design. So it is not in accordance to our design, rather His design ( assuming his existence and he has powers that Christians believe ).


Sorry, I meant "our design", as in, the design with which we were created, not the design that we, ourselves, specified. As you say it was His doing. It is therefore still His responsibility and His fault.

You don't read the whole part of my comment, do you? I said that God is neutral from the concept of Good and Bad only prior to it's creation. i had said that in the last comment.


I disregarded it, as it is irrelevant. I admit, I'm not sure why you're stressing this point, as it doesn't seem to follow the topic of discussion at all:

I say that if God is all-knowing and intentionally created evil, He is bad.
You say that He is neutral, because good and bad did not already exist when He did so.
I say that it doesn't matter, because they are in place now, and His actions would still count as being bad.
You say that He is not neutral, but was at one time.

What exactly are you trying to prove here?

Nice assumption. but that does not scale to what i was saying to you.


You're right. Mine had only one assumed correlation. If we look at yours, we see...

If God was stripped from His very nature that made him worshiped [...], then why do you think He was respected in the first place?


Assumption 1: Worship of God is a necessary consequence of His nature.

Assumption 2 (implied): Worship of God is only possible as a consequence of His nature.

Our Believer's concept of God would had never exist if there was no one to transmit that idea in the first place in a nice and good manner [...]


Assumption 3: Belief in a benevolent deity is impossible unless it stems from a benevolent source.

[...] if he wanted to made a religion in His name, he would need first respect from his own converts, take that away and the religion crumbles like a house of cards


Assumption 4: A supreme being cannot create a religion without people believing in Him first.

[...] assuming His existence [...]


And, of course, assumption #5.
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