Forums → News and Feedback → [Official] What is a Knight?

I don't understand why this is such a big thing to you guys to the point you basically start a small riot. Verwaltung is knighted. Complain all you want but it's too late to do anything about it.

Kind of noticed this "kindly conversation" a couple of days ago, but didn't get involved due to what I thought were obvious reasons.

I haven't been here long, so some of what I say might be a little (or a lot) incorrect. So terribly sorry if I make a mistake or two.

First of:
1) Only admins can make knights, admins, the people who basically run the site. Knights don't have any powers whatsoever, so it's nothing more than a medal of honour.

2) I've been on a site similar to this where a friend of mine became a mod in 3 months, they weren't what you call active, sure they were helpful but that's about it. Long story short, the following months they became one of the best mods I've ever seen on the site.

3) To be a knight (or higher) the main reason (in my opinion) is trust. It isn't activity, or helpfulness or being kind, it's about trust. The admin(s) trust this person, I might not know this knighted person, (and as such, I can't trust them) but I can trust the admins.

3b) The people arguing (Valid reasons, I was annoyed over my friend being modded after a mere 3 months, but they changed in ways I couldn't even imagine, it really changed my opinion on not just them, but mods in general and how they were elected) have been on this site for so many months (and even years) longer than I have, and yet it seems you don't fully trust the people in charge, the people that are suppose to be your guardians, protectors, your helpers. A little bit of faith and trust can go a long way.

Sorry for the long post. Might have gotten carried away.

Verwaltung is knighted

How many times do we have to say this. WE DONT CARE HW WAS KNIGHTED IT IS ----HOW--- HE WAS.

To be a knight (or higher) the main reason (in my opinion) is trust. It isn't activity, or helpfulness or being kind, it's about trust. The admin(s) trust this person, I might not know this knighted person, (and as such, I can't trust them) but I can trust the admins.

I would trust them a lot more if they could explain their decisions instead of just going "we made the decision listen to us". I'm not a fan of not being able to question leadership.

and yet it seems you don't fully trust the people in charge,

It isn't that we don't trust them, it's that we just don't like this system that they made and then quickly abandoned.

Alright guys, let's take this from the top.

Please keep in mind that you are not entitled to know all the details of the discussions that go on behind the scenes. That said, some of you are evidently very upset by this, despite the minimal influence it has on the community.

Verwaltung's activity drop-off should have been noticed before the decision was made to knight him and this is an oversight. For now, however, the decision stands. If Verwaltung remains inactive we may rescind the knight title, but the team has not yet come to a unanimous decision on this. If we do end up deciding to, we likely won't make a big announcement of it.

It should be noted that the knight title does not explicitly come with active duty as a requirement. It is an acknowledgement of effort and comes with a few perks. Constructive suggestions to improve what the knight title signifies and what should be required of knights are welcome, but please submit them in an orderly fashion, ie not slathered in anger over what you feel is an inappropriate knighting.

I would trust them a lot more if they could explain their decisions instead of just going "we made the decision listen to us". I'm not a fan of not being able to question leadership.

Further questions welcome, although I can't guarantee being able to answer them.

Please keep in mind that you are not entitled to know all the details of the discussions that go on behind the scenes.

Nor are we saying we are? We are saying that this title was created as a position of merit for examplery users among the site. However, how can any of these users be examplery if no one has any fine and dandy clue as to what about them made them worthy of being a knight. At least half of the knights easily fit this issue.

That said, some of you are evidently very upset by this, despite the minimal influence it has on the community.

Minimal? You are literally giving a user a title, benefits and all. Hardly minimal. Furthermore, the title and fancy font colour obviously will have an effect on users when it comes to an opinion piece or advice.

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It is an acknowledgement of effort and comes with a few perks.

As I've said, it's been brought down to the point of glorified beta-tester, sadly.

how to improve knight title

-make the decision of a decision that *mod 1: I like this user he is nice* *admin1: k* *mod 2&3 kick sand at mod 4*

-Make the community more involved. That way more of a sense or respect can be placed upon a knight.

-idk give them mini mod powers how is that not an obvious
Note: don't do this until after the system is fixed

-in their profile, in the "knight" discription, put their reason for knighting there.

Verwaltung was primarily knighted to encourage the creation of more detailed game reviews, from them or others, by showing that we appreciate the time and effort put into good reviews.

Yeah we figured that out. Still a few more of the knights that have gone unrecognized/answered. (Almost all, actually).

Currently, blessed users are more or less to knights what knights are to moderators - users granted an honorary title. Blessed users gain a quest. Knights gain the small perks (a special forum, fancy forum appearance, beta test access). This is congruent with knights having less ~power~ than moderators - those they deem worthy do not get quite as shiny rewards as those the moderators deem worthy.

What value would you like to see the title of knighthood hold in the future? It is currently vaguely defined, and while it is unlikely that we will significantly alter the process of knighting users, constructive criticism is good.

For the record we do have somewhat of an "I chose to bless this user because X" list for knights. I'm not sure what the value of making it public is, though, and the team would need to consider it. Could you provide some reasoning as to why having it publicly available would be a good thing?

Suggestions like "knights should be active role models in the community" and "knights should have mini versions of mod powers" are valid but would be significant changes from the current state of things. Would you want users who have been knighted due to things like previously being a moderator demoted and blessed instead? Perhaps a "moderator's blessing" instated for a slightly more official blessing (as knight blessings seem to be fairly scattered)?

PS: Did you see how you argued in opposite directions on whether the influence is minimal or not? It's kinda funny.

As I've said, it's been brought down to the point of glorified beta-tester, sadly.

We aren't just glorified beta-testers, as Zophia said, we can't tell you everything, but I assure you, we aren't just that. Though we aren't hiding that much.

-in their profile, in the "knight" discription, put their reason for knighting there.

I have to agree with this one, if knights are supposed to be roll models for users, this would give users a direction in good deeds, after all, how do you build a plane without a blue print. I guess the way to becoming a knight is much too vague when it's explained in the OP here.

@pangtongshu In a way, I agree with your suggestions, they seem very reasonable.

Could you provide some reasoning as to why having it publicly available would be a good thing?

I have literally constantly been doing that. In fact, my whole argument for why knights have become meaningless is based off of it.

significant change from the current state of things

Creating the knights was as much a significant change as any...so stating that it would be a large change as some sort of deference really means nothing, at least for me.

deknight ex mods and bless them

I think there is merit in that idea..or maybe create a separate class just for the ex-mods (sort of how knights started).

we aren't glorified beta testers

Then what are you? Officially, that is. Those in charge of the operation haven't given anything to deter the idea otherwise..in fact they seem to be in a sort of blind aggreance of it, due to the constant argument of "knights don't hold any power" without then providing any necessary statement to give this system any value of worth other than a shrouded game of favoritism.

they seem very reasonable

I'm not trying to bash knights or the idea of knights..quite the opposite. I'm arguing for the knights, for a system that works. The current system is not working.

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Please excuse my lack of direct quoting. For some odd reason, on mobile, about the right 1/4 of my screen has an invisible ad that will send me to another tab for some ad click dealio..so quoting can end up being impossible for me unless I'm willing to retype what you said ver batum, which I'm not willing to do.

I'm not trying to bash knights or the idea of knights..quite the opposite. I'm arguing for the knights, for a system that works. The current system is not working.

I actually understand that what you're saying. As a knight myself, I don't want to be looked at as a glorified beta tester, I want to be respected for what I have done, or what I am doing. Your arguments make sense and I can see your point of view, and in all honesty, they are very logical arguments. I'm not trying to side with anyone here, I'm trying to look for what may be best for the position and image of knights, which @pangtongshu 's suggestions actually do.

Knights should be roll models, that means people should know how they were knighted.
Knighthood (which was argued very well by Matt) seems more like a promotion, instead of an award (which is what the blessing is for, though it needs more value to it). Knights should have more functionality that even users, can see. But yes, knights do have more functionality that sometimes users can't see.
Transparency in government seems to please citizens, so we (knights and +) should also be more transparent to regular users.

All opinion. I believe that some of the suggestions posted here should really be looked at, they make sense. It's hard to argue against it at this point.

Awh, gonna have to do a quote wall. But concise posts. D: And yeah, that mobile layout thing is incredibly annoying.

I can't really put it any more specific than I did in my previous post.

Because at times we don't know why and we don't prefer to just "take your word for it."

Can you provide some reasoning as to why keeping it private is a good thing?

I have literally constantly been doing that. In fact, my whole argument for why knights have become meaningless is based off of it.

Previous moderators are inactive and therefore have no need of benefits, so Knighting them does nothing for either them or the community. I suggest demoting and blessing the lot of them, with their name and the reason being stated in the "What is a Knight's Blessing?" thread. They deserve recognition for being a moderator, and if you really think about it, the best award would be an award, not a promotion.

I see you've both mentioned not really caring for "this is significant change" as a reason for things being as they are, but hopefully you can accept that it may be the reason things don't really change, even if suggestions are acknowledged. Everything takes time and effort.

-make the decision of a decision that *mod 1: I like this user he is nice* *admin1: k* *mod 2&3 kick sand at mod 4*

Can you provide some reasoning as to why keeping it private is a good thing?

I suggest demoting and blessing the lot of them, with their name and the reason being stated in the "What is a Knight's Blessing?" thread. They deserve recognition for being a moderator, and if you really think about it, the best award would be an award, not a promotion.

Is there any particular reason for the apparent resentment over being asked to "take our word for it"?

I don't see why this would be worth doing. The fact that they aren't around to use the paltry benefits of knighthood is not a valid reason to revoke that title, nor are they being promoted by the receipt of this title, as it is lesser than their original title of modertor (or, in some cases, admin).

My thoughts exactly. Don't look at it solely from a perspective of functionality. The "Knight" title is not just a rank with privileges, it is primarily a reward and an honorary title. So just because previous mods don't use the benefits doesn't mean they should only get the blessing. Exactly because of what they've done for the site, they deserve the knighthood.

But then what differentiates a knight from a blessed user?

The main difference the way I see it is the effort put into the achievement itself...at least currently. Not saying that I support this!

Then what are you? Officially, that is. Those in charge of the operation haven't given anything to deter the idea otherwise..in fact they seem to be in a sort of blind aggreance of it, due to the constant argument of "knights don't hold any power" without then providing any necessary statement to give this system any value of worth other than a shrouded game of favoritism.

I will have to disagree here. Maybe your standards for knighthood are too high. In fact that's what I tend to believe. And high Knighthood standards is a different point altogether.

I agree with you that new knights should be or have been more than fairly active. But this is taking it a bit too far. Why do you think that they are glorified beta testers? Even with your doubts about the system of Knighthood, beta testing is somewhat irrelevant...how did you think that?

The knight title should be given to someone who, besides having done something noteworthy for the community, is still doing things.

Not necessarily but on most of the cases yes. I would suggest this being nullified if said Knight was very active in the past, like in the case of old mods, or very active users who did perform admirably, even though they are inactive now.

In conclusion: Like I said, activity is a requirement for Knighthood in my opinion. Verwaltung's knighthood does appear to be a bit vague and undeserved. Do I trust the mods on it? For now yes, but if Verwaltung doesn't become an active member at least now (because he never was), then it was truly poor judgement.

It's sort of been building. Recent Knights have shown up with no explanation. One of the earlier ones was CourtJester, who never made an appearance in the Knight thread (I think he's a CTC builder who spends all his time in that thread/area). I had never heard of him. Neither had several other people.

Pointing fingers at neutral knights and making evaluations about their performance is a poor way to prove any kind of point. This kind of negative activity really decreases the overall morale, and is my strongest argument against demoting knights for this reason.