Forums → WEPR → European influence

Too wide a scope of question. Europe of today, or of its history? Europe today is vastly changing at a rapid rate, given that it's increasingly cosmopolitan and multi-ethnic. The spread of Europeans, their way of life and ideals through their colonies?

Will it be a world power if the EU unites in a kindred spirit? Yes definitely. Is it a valuable ally? Too many individual countries to account for a fixed ally. Though if you view it simply as part of NATO, yes.

Think the discussion will flow better if there are fixed perimeters to this.

Viewing Europe through glass of your little fish tank:
"World of modern and tolerant values" resulted in people incapable of doing police job because they fear to be called "intolerant".
That's only 1400 kids raped, safe and better world. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089
http://www.thelocal.fr/20140102/new-year-sees-1000-cars-burned-across-france
1000 cars burned overnight. Safest place on Earth, definitely.
In my country the biggest amount of burned at once cars I heard of were 7 and 15.
Divided? No. European politic is a muppet show, hands belong to US. Muppets can bash each other, blame each other or whoever else director would tell to actor, but overall course of actions profits US.
Weak? Definitely.
Trend? Further weaken.
World power? With what resources?
Intellectual? Internet + cheap smartphones = good education, accessible to everyone willing to learn. so it's not an advantage any more. Statistically, there are more chances that next genius would be born in China or India.
Natural? Ha-ha, good one.
Plants for mass production? China is cheaper.
Naval yards? Greece's bankrupt, Lithuanian bankrupt, Bulgarian bankrupt, French ones after "making Mistrals for Russia" aren't very trustworthy either...Huge demand, definitely.
Europe is neither seen as valuable (yes, good laundromat for $, EU debt almost equal to US debt; fining German banks and Volkswagen) nor as ally for "west" (again, fining German banks and Volkswagen)

"If Russia invaded Ukraine without USA would Europe do anything?"
Second part first(would Europe do anything):
When Turkey invaded Greece and annexed part of it, did anyone did anything? Europe (Greece is part of Europe, even part of Eurounion) can't help itself.

First part(If Russia invaded Ukraine)
From pure force point of view:
"Coalition of 60 countries bombed ISIS for two years, and it resulted in growth of its territory".
"2 dozens of Russian jets bombed ISIS for 3 months and it resulted in heavy territorial losses and mass deserting of ISIS cannon fodder in woman dresses.

Actual "invasion" of Ukraine would've ended overnight - There is 180 km distance from Belarus, member of CSTO.
Russia could've staged an attack of Belarus by Ukrainian forces (see Winter war for reference) and capture Kiev in 3 hours. Then wide TV/Radio translation - who moves, gets shot by cruise missiles. And that's all.

This is completely discarding "why invade Ukraine at all"...
Conflict has two issues:
1.Crimea.
I was there not so long ago
http://imgur.com/tKt2m52
and move there tomorrow for permanent living.
http://i.imgur.com/LURCLkz.jpg
so I have first-hand experience with emotions of local population.
They are glad for being part of Russia again. Many locals have Russian anthem as their ringtone (to the point of being unsettle, actually)
Heck, you can read on Sevastopol wiki page that they rioted three times to join Russia since 1990th. (If it wasn't censored out, but still should be searchable in edits)
2. "Russian invasion" in Donbass.
Some background:
When USSR felt, there were basically no government, many plants went, in gaming terms, "neutral", "belongs to government, belongs to nobody" and this situation was abused by people for personal gain.
Bands of bandits captured plants, and, basically, most of USSR was divided between oligarchs.
In Russia it was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semibankirschina and it almost destroyed country.
It was ended by FSB, Yeltsin(Oligarch's puppet) was kicked out, and since then we see steady economical growth.
In Ukraine, though, there was no such force and it continues.
Conflict boils down to Rothschild backing Oligarch Poroshenko
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/poroshenko-to-transfer-his-share-in-roshen-to-rothschild-under-trust-agreement-390343.html
in capturing of most profitable Ukrainian property - coal mines, and related steel industry. Owners of said mines in Donbass and Luhansk - ukrainian oligarchs Akhmetov and Firtash. They started revolution(two oligarchs - two republics), because they don't want to lose billion dollar business. With the size of corruption in Ukrainian army they got plenty of weapon, rise of poverty on Ukraine supplies them with mercenaries...
This is also why there are no satellite footage of "thousands of russians crossing Ukrainian territory" - it's not Russian war.

I know, EU media all gloat over "Hurr-durr,Ieeevil russians, don't want to let ukraine live good in EU, bad russians, bad russians".

But, realistically, just thinking about Ukraine in EU causes hysterical laugh.
Their statistic in 2013:
GDP Ukraine< GDP of greece
Population of Ukraine> Population of 10 Greece
Their GDP growth over last 20 years=0%.
Slight GDP/capita change was caused by decrease of population by 20%.
During USSR they were 30% of population with 15% of GDP, second wealthiest republic. Right now this "country" economically comparable to Zimbabwe
EU couldn't make Greece work, just postponed problem for 10-15 years (enough for current Muppets in power to resign); I simply not seeing anybody in Europe capable of making Ukraine work.

Viewing Europe through glass of your little fish tank

What?

"World of modern and tolerant values" resulted in people incapable of doing police job because they fear to be called "intolerant".

This makes no sense. That isn't near the point what I was trying to say. If you are tolerant that doesn't make you a pacifist.

That's only 1400 kids raped, safe and better world. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

And you are judging Europe by results of Rotherdam, England?

http://www.thelocal.fr/20140102/new-year-sees-1000-cars-burned-across-france
1000 cars burned overnight. Safest place on Earth, definitely.
In my country the biggest amount of burned at once cars I heard of were 7 and 15.

I don't see the importance in this.

Divided? No. European politic is a muppet show, hands belong to US. Muppets can bash each other, blame each other or whoever else director would tell to actor, but overall course of actions profits US.

Well that is a little bit of an overstatement.

World power? With what resources?
Intellectual? Internet + cheap smartphones = good education, accessible to everyone willing to learn. so it's not an advantage any more. Statistically, there are more chances that next genius would be born in China or India.
Natural? Ha-ha, good one.
Plants for mass production? China is cheaper.
Naval yards? Greece's bankrupt, Lithuanian bankrupt, Bulgarian bankrupt, French ones after "making Mistrals for Russia" aren't very trustworthy either...Huge demand, definitely.
Europe is neither seen as valuable (yes, good laundromat for $, EU debt almost equal to US debt; fining German banks and Volkswagen) nor as ally for "west" (again, fining German banks and Volkswagen)

Europe has focus on quality (education, industry, science...) more than on quantity.

When Turkey invaded Greece and annexed part of it, did anyone did anything? Europe (Greece is part of Europe, even part of Eurounion) can't help itself.

When did this happened?

First part(If Russia invaded Ukraine)
From pure force point of view:
"Coalition of 60 countries bombed ISIS for two years, and it resulted in growth of its territory".
"2 dozens of Russian jets bombed ISIS for 3 months and it resulted in heavy territorial losses and mass deserting of ISIS cannon fodder in woman dresses.

But it isn't a territorial invasion is it, and this is totally geo-politically different

This is completely discarding "why invade Ukraine at all"...

Not the point of this thread

What?

And you are judging Europe by results of Rotherdam, England?

I judge EU by many things, and I'm disillusioned in Europe being an Edem for culture, equality, tolerant values, etc.

I don't see the importance in this.

Well that is a little bit of an overstatement.

Europe has focus on quality (education, industry, science...) more than on quantity.

When did this happened?

Not the point of this thread

"World of modern and tolerant values" resulted in people incapable of doing police job because they fear to be called "intolerant".

That's only 1400 kids raped, safe and better world. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089
http://www.thelocal.fr/20140102/new-year-sees-1000-cars-burned-across-france
1000 cars burned overnight. Safest place on Earth, definitely.

In my country the biggest amount of burned at once cars I heard of were 7 and 15.

Divided? No. European politic is a muppet show, hands belong to US. Muppets can bash each other, blame each other or whoever else director would tell to actor, but overall course of actions profits US.

Intellectual? Internet + cheap smartphones = good education, [...]

Natural? Ha-ha, good one.
Plants for mass production? China is cheaper.
Naval yards? Greece's bankrupt, Lithuanian bankrupt, Bulgarian bankrupt, French ones after "making Mistrals for Russia" aren't very trustworthy either...Huge demand, definitely.

When Turkey invaded Greece and annexed part of it, did anyone did anything?

[...] (Greece is part of Europe, even part of Eurounion) [...]

"Coalition of 60 countries bombed ISIS for two years, and it resulted in growth of its territory".

"2 dozens of Russian jets bombed ISIS for 3 months and it resulted in heavy territorial losses and mass deserting of ISIS cannon fodder in woman dresses.

Russia could've staged an attack of Belarus by Ukrainian forces (see Winter war for reference) and capture Kiev in 3 hours. Then wide TV/Radio translation - who moves, gets shot by cruise missiles. And that's all.

This is completely discarding "why invade Ukraine at all"...

[insipid gratuitous pro-Russia spiel disregarded on the grounds of having no relevance whatsoever]

Can fish understand that it lives in an aquarium without ever seeing it from outside?

I'm saying that your cave is Europe, your chains are your news sources.
Without leaving this cave, you can't fully understand reality.

Right now we see rape-related scandal in Cologne...

Plus, people from Norwegia, Finland say that it's rising problem in their countries too.

I judge EU by many things, and I'm disillusioned in Europe being an Edem for culture, equality, tolerant values, etc.

I like how "mutually implemented" sanctions against Russia resulted in growth of trade balance between US and Russa, with drop in EU&Russia. They said to EU stop trade, and said to Russia - trade with me, not with mah bithc.

In result Europe gets uneducated masses, incapable of filling high quality industry and science jobs.

Like, how is the European space station called? Oh, right EU has none.

Maybe Europe launched next-gen nuclear reactor? Um, not even close, it was launched in Russia.

Why would you post it then?

Frankly, when I visited Croatia last time, I met diametrally different greetings. (Split and islands near it). People gladly tried to speak Russian with me, and were somewhat ashamed for betraying us.

What does this have to do with the topic?

What does this have to do with the topic?

No, no, you can't just cry conspiracy and leave it at that;

Of course. How else would we know about the ever-present threat

As of 1981, yes.

No, it didn't.

So why hasn't any of this actually happened?

I challenge you to name any person from Norwegia who makes any such claim, or even anything like it.

Edem? What?

Whether you like it or not has no effect upon it's irrelevance. Stop trying to make everything about Russia.

Why can't you identify the location where it was mentioned?

I'm saying that your cave is Europe, your chains are your news sources.
Without leaving this cave, you can't fully understand reality.

Where do i state such biased opinion that Europe is a great, wealthy superpower. If we are going to talk about fish tanks I can only see a Russian one.

Right now we see rape-related scandal in Cologne...
Plus, people from Norwegia, Finland say that it's rising problem in their countries too.

It is a global problem... How many more rapes that aren't registered are there in the third world countries? How many in USA or Canada? Asia?

I judge EU by many things, and I'm disillusioned in Europe being an Edem for culture, equality, tolerant values, etc.

Most of Europe is pretty tolerant and is very different in culture. And it can live with that. It already does. Globalized.

Millions of Euro in damage overnight, not important at all. Europeans are obedient, each-other respecting people.

Not important. It shows that there could be a mad man in France nothing more. It has nothing to do with general European. Do you know what does obedient means?

USA has a influence over EU but to compare it to a muppet show is just ignorant.

In result Europe gets uneducated masses, incapable of filling high quality industry and science jobs.
Like, how is the European space station called? Oh, right EU has none.
Maybe Europe launched next-gen nuclear reactor? Um, not even close, it was launched in Russia.

>Uneducated masses? That is just plain stupid of you to say. (Student performance)
>There is ISS
>Russia is not the center of this topic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus
NATO country attacks NATO country, amazing alliance.

FishPreffered already answered to this :
(

When Turkey invaded Greece and annexed part of it, did anyone did anything?
If you're referring to the invasion of Cyprus (1974), it was a direct retaliation to a Greek takeover.
[...] (Greece is part of Europe, even part of Eurounion) [...]
As of 1981, yes

Why would you post it then? Frankly, when I visited Croatia last time, I met diametrally different greetings. (Split and islands near it). People gladly tried to speak Russian with me, and were somewhat ashamed for betraying us.

It was an example. Just to see the geo-political situation of Europe.

And what you said for Croatia...

First. Croatia was split many times during the history so different parts have different accents but we all feel like Croats.

Second. Why did you even bring Croatia in this? Because I am a Croat. Look stop being biased towards Russia just because you are Russian and stop trying to justify Russian acts by saying things like this. You can't judge objectively because it seams you are to personally in this so don't judge it at all, at least not with that much bias.

Direct question from topic starter. "How do you view Europe". I view it as region where police less and less capable of doing its job when things come to minorities.

Well, I posted some facts about US profits at the expense of EU. Post some about EU profits at the expense of US.

Why would you drop the most important part of to everyone willing to learn

Before that Greece was asian or american region?

And you can back your words?

Isn't relevant to the topic, but the answer is quite simple - Russia doesn't need all of Ukraine.

Western (which includes Kiev) can go **** itself.

Challenge accepted:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/world/europe/norway-offers-migrants-a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html?_r=0

Typo. Are you so uneducated that you can't figure one letter within full meaning laid out to you?

Whether you like it or not has no effect upon its relevance.

If Russia invaded Ukraine without USA would Europe do anything?
ISIS commited terroristic attacks in France. did Europe did anything? France did some airstrikes in November, and that's all.

You can't judge objectively because it seams you are to personally in this so don't judge it at all, at least not with that much bias.

I just want to point out that Europe is not a country @Gremlion. You've been comparing it with Russia all this time but you missed the "abstract" element in the question of the OP.

You see, Europe is not subject to any central government whatsoever. It is multinational continent with some of the most advanced countries in the world, at least economically, if not in other fields as well. But you can't point out incidents that took place in some of those countries (like this) and use them to form an image of Europe as a whole. Moreover, you can't compare it with a single nation, like you've being doing.
As you can understand, the conclusion you've been trying to draw is based on a faulty comparison, and that's part of the reason why the points you are trying to make are irrelevant to the topic.

The truth is, that what nicho pointed out is true. The original question is too wide a scope of. A singular view is a bit difficult to be established and maintained.

@Doombreed You missed my points. I haven't tried to do comparison.
OP made broad question, I did broad answer. (Yes, many of my answers focus on relationships with Russia, but, hey, Europe still depend on trade with us)
You see, Europe IS a subject to central goverment, Europarliament. And one of instruments of its control - central european bank, which gives credits to european countries so they can operate.
Countries in Europe can claim that they are independent... Until these drug addicts would need another credit. Can Greece right now do independent politic? Poland is on its way to Greece with negative trade balance and stable budget deficit, Baltic "countries" are disgustingly pitiful, and so on.
I'm not comparing Europe to "single nation", if you mean Russia. It is a home for 190 nations (I'm person of Ukrainian\Polish\Russian descent myself).
My conclusion is based on huge bulk of information, some of it I have seen myself, some of it say friends of my parents, which leave Europe after living there for 15+ years, most of it from news (And, puuhlease, don't say anything about me watching kremlin propaganda. I'm not searching for analysis in news, just facts). Definitely, I lack knowledge about some meaningless countries like Portugal, but I see enough to estimate that:
-Europe doesn't have equivalent of IT cluster like Silicon valley. Locomotive of these technologies, military tech... is US-based to be compatible with NATO.
-Europe is lacking in space technologies. No own space station (ISS consists of US and Russian segments, sorry), And space is key for survival of humankind, source for rare resources, etc.
-European debt is an overfilled cesspool, worse than US one.
-European education, as was linked by OP (IIRC) is already loses to Asian one.
-Europe doesn't have capacity to surpass China in mass producing.

So, overall, I don't see Europe becoming world superpower(even if all european countries would unite together into one country).
Still, on direct answer "is it nice place to live" I would say - mostly yes. But tendency is that areas where it is nice, do decrease.

Doombreed You missed my points. I haven't tried to do comparison.

First part(If Russia invaded Ukraine)
From pure force point of view:
"Coalition of 60 countries bombed ISIS for two years, and it resulted in growth of its territory".
"2 dozens of Russian jets bombed ISIS for 3 months and it resulted in heavy territorial losses and mass deserting of ISIS cannon fodder in woman dresses.

Like, how is the European space station called? Oh, right EU has none.
Maybe Europe launched next-gen nuclear reactor? Um, not even close, it was launched in Russia.

----

You see, Europe IS a subject to central goverment, Europarliament.

Can Greece right now do independent politic?

Poland is on its way to Greece with negative trade balance and stable budget deficit, Baltic "countries" are disgustingly pitiful, and so on.

I'm not comparing Europe to "single nation", if you mean Russia. It is a home for 190 nations [...]

-Europe doesn't have equivalent of IT cluster like Silicon valley.

And space is key for survival of humankind, source for rare resources, etc.

-European debt is an overfilled cesspool, worse than US one.
-European education, as was linked by OP (IIRC) is already loses to Asian one.
-Europe doesn't have capacity to surpass China in mass producing.

- The entire world is wacked by debt. I suggest you view The Economist's debt clock for a near real-time update on the global debt, as well as every country's debt individually). Even if we accept that the EU debt is greater than the US one (which is not, according to the Economist, the US has a public debt nearing 16 trillion USD. Comparatively the global debt is 57 trillion USD), it doesn't change the fact that what matters is mostly the debt as % of GDP for individual nations and the public debt per person for each country, not the size of the debt itself.

- So? It is still one of the best in the world (I reckon. Haven't checked with sources. If I am wrong, please correct me). You will always find a section or field in which Europe as a whole (if it's possible to talk about it without overgeneralizing) loses to another country/nation/race/continent/etc, because nothing is perfect.

- So?

@FishPreferred This is last time I answer to your neckbearded trolling.
You still haven't contributed anything to the topic beside attacking my opinion.

Yet you did so anyway:

1 Europe ≠ EU
2 That doesn't make EU comparable to a single nation. Member states can't be forced to enact EP legislation that they don't support.

Yes. It's doing exactly that at this very moment.

Just what do you think Swizerland is?

- So? It is still one of the best in the world (I reckon. Haven't checked with sources. If I am wrong, please correct me).

Greek debt is of the same quality and of the same future. Yep, for now their convulsions are prolonged, but, because we don't see any big investments into Greece (and why would anyone invest into country, which can't pay its debts), we are safe to assume that they wouldn't generate money faster -> default is inevitable.