Forums → The Tavern → Time travel
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The thing I find amusing is the number of people saying they would go back in time with the winning lottery numbers. How would that work exactly?
The lottery numbers come out of the machine randomly, so even if you had the knowledge of what they were a week ago, chances are the numbers won't be the same when the numbers are drawn.
Likewise with races. If 8 horses win a race on a particular day, and one of them wins, having that knowledge and going back in time doesn't stop random events happening during the race that changes the outcome.
Going back in time and patenting ideas wouldn't work brilliantly either. There are products that have come and gone because the timing of their release wasn't right, or the product didn't follow a natural route to market. So say you patented the idea for an operating system, or a type of engine or whatever. There is no guarantee that the random nature of life might not step in and cause what was a successful product to be a complete flop. Or that if history was rerun again, there could be someone who didn't succeed in your version of history, but rerun, they release a piece of software or an engine that is far superior to the one you're patented.
Travelling into the future probably wouldn't help either, because the solutions of the future may not necessarily work in the present. Lets say in the future there is some sort of machine invented, something that generates power without the need for fuel. You'd have to see the path to that machine, the logical progression of ideas and materials in order to recreate it in the past. Political solutions that may work in the future could be because of the events that led to that point and again, wouldn't necessarily work in the past.
I dislike the idea of time travel simply because it would lead to more problems than it could possibly solve and the majority of people couldn't just go backwards and forwards through time to observe, most would feel compelled to interact and usually for their own personal gain.
@Dewi
It's not random the second time, it's not even literally random the first time. In the lottery, it's all based on where the balls were placed and when they were taken out, and if you don't do anything to effect either of these, they will turn out the exact same way. Provided you don't change anything, the numbers will always be the same. Likewise with the horse example, unless you do something that will effect the horses, racetrack, jokey, ect, the results will turn out the same.
Okay, but what guarantee do you have that the balls will be placed in the exact same place? The lottery over here involves a bunch of balls being placed in a container and they're randomly released, so no matter how you put the balls into the container, you'll receive a random result every time you switch the machine on. Is that not how the lottery works where you are?
And with a horse race, there is always the chance for a random event. The horse that won the race originally could stumble, it could develop cramp... any number of random events could happen that change the eventual outcome.
The same could be said for other types of races, it only takes one random event to change the outcome. Car racing takes a split second change of mind by a driver and the race could be lost or won. Running, many runners have admitted that something crossed their mind during a race that spurred them on... what if something didn't cross their mind? What if something crossed their mind that made them give up? It's all random.
I wouldn't do anything. I would like to erase my mistakes, but then I might have other mistakes I wouldn't know how to deal with. I don't mind what I have to deal with now
I'd like to go back and observe, but like you say, erasing mistakes would probably cause more problems.
One of the things I find fascinating is that decisions we make throughout our lives can determine which way we go. If I'd studied harder as a kid, would I now be doing a different job? And if I did have a different job, would I have a different social circle? Given a different social circle, would I have the same hobbies or interests?
Observing seems perfect. I'd like to see what would happen if I made different choices, and kind of monitor what happened as a result. But the possibilities would be infinite.. There are so many choices we make in life we don't even realize affect our lives.
Kind of like that film, Sliding Doors.
Only problem I could see with observing is being able to observe without attracting attention. For instance, a period I'm fascinated with is the beginnings of the industrial revolution and the rapid expansion of industry. It led to new types of housing being developed for workers, better transport links and all of this was going on at the same time. How to observe without becoming involved though would be difficult, even if you were to dress in period clothing, few would know how to act and where to go. You can't exactly stand on street corners and just watch the world go by as people would want to know what you were doing.
Okay, but what guarantee do you have that the balls will be placed in the exact same place? The lottery over here involves a bunch of balls being placed in a container and they're randomly released, so no matter how you put the balls into the container, you'll receive a random result every time you switch the machine on. Is that not how the lottery works where you are?
Yes, and my statements still stand. As long as there's nothing changing what the machine is doing it will produce the same result every time, even if it is "random". Nothing happens without something else causing it to happen, so if everything happens exactly the same, which if you don't change anything it logically should, then you will get the same "random" results. Even computers can't generate random numbers, they require a seed, such as how long it has been running, and they use that to generate the number. Random is just the term we use to describe events that we can't consciously control.
How can the results be the same though?
No two individual draws are the same, and that is exactly what this would be... two individual draws.
The lottery machine has no concept of time or time travel for that matter, so the minute they start the machine it will bring out random balls.
And the definition of random is proceeding, made, or occuring without definite aim, reason or pattern. Lottery balls have no pattern, no aim nor reason, so how could they possibly come out the same on two separate instances just because those two instances share the same space in time?
No two individual draws are the same, and that is exactly what this would be... two individual draws.
It's the same draw at the same time with the same balls in the same place, that's the point of traveling into the past.
It all depends on the lottery machine.
If the lottery machine uses the ping pong ball method, the results would more than likely be difference as it is based on the laws of mathematics and probability.
Whereas if the lottery machine was computer controlled, it would use a pseudo-random process based on a mathematical formula. There is an outside chance that the computer would use the identical formula and come up with identical numbers. But again, it is a chance.
Working out the odds is something that may take a while.
I still believe the chances would be slim. It would be like going back in time and rolling a dice. No two dice are rolled exactly the same twice, so you couldn't guarantee the results twice in a row.
Again, the lottery machine, like the dice, may occupy the same space time, but if the result is truly random as apposed to pseudo-random, the results are not guaranteed to be the same.
It all depends on the lottery machine.
It's the exact same lottery machine. The point of going back in time for something like this is you know how everything is going to turn out, and you're going to use that to your advantage. If something produces a random result once, if you go back in time, it will produce the same random result.
Whereas if the lottery machine was computer controlled, it would use a pseudo-random process based on a mathematical formula. There is an outside chance that the computer would use the identical formula and come up with identical numbers. But again, it is a chance.
It will come up with the exact same formula because the seed is still exactly the same. If a program generates a random number based on runtime (which most programs do), and someone uses that program and receives the number 5, if you go back in time and the other person does it at the exact same time, then he will still get a 5. The other person will do it at the exact same time unless you somehow intervene, because there's nothing stopping him from straying from his original actions, as far as he's concerned he's doing this for the first time.
Whereas if the lottery machine was computer controlled, it would use a pseudo-random process based on a mathematical formula. There is an outside chance that the computer would use the identical formula and come up with identical numbers. But again, it is a chance.
It's not a chance because whatever seed it used for that formula is going to be exactly the same, unless once again, you intervene and cause the seed to be used at a different time, therefor causing a different value for the seed.
I still believe the chances would be slim. It would be like going back in time and rolling a dice. No two dice are rolled exactly the same twice, so you couldn't guarantee the results twice in a row.
I'm going to point out that "No two dice are rolled exactly the same twice" is completely false, you can roll a die and receive the same results twice in a row. And they will be exactly the same, provided you used the exact same force, angle, location, ect, which you will unless you or someone else causes you to change it.
if the result is truly random
It's not truly random, nothing is truly random. There is always something that causes something else to happen, and we call that chance because we can't control it.
You don't know what is going to happen, because the machine isn't going to produce the exact same results. If that were the case, why doesn't the machine produce the same numbers every week? Just because it produced the numbers last Saturday in one pattern, doesn't mean if you went back in time you could reproduce the exact same results. The odds of that happening are astronomical.
I'm fully aware of how a computer can use a formula, but each time a program is run to reach a pseudo-random number, it isn't going to produce the same result. If it did, as I say, the lottery results on computer-controlled lottery machines would be the same every week.
And you're ignoring the fact that the machine could be the ping pong ball variety. A computer doesn't control the results, it is the balls rotating in a chamber, striking each other randomly and a ball being pulled out at a given interval. How can that be anything but random? Are you going to tell me that the balls will strike each other in the exact same place on two separate occassions?
I'm going to point out that "No two dice are rolled exactly the same twice" is completely false, you can roll a die and receive the same results twice in a row. And they will be exactly the same, provided you used the exact same force, angle, location, ect, which you will unless you or someone else causes you to change it.
That I would love to see. Someone would have to be incredibly skilled (some would say freakishly skilled) to reproduce the exact force, angle etc. to enable an identical result to the first throw.
Say you throw a one. The chances of throwing another one would be a 1 in 6 chance. Each throw of the die that follows would increase the chances of throwing a one, but nobody can guarantee the outcome.
Show me one example of someone throwing a die repeatedly and receiving the same number every time without the die being loaded.
It's not truly random, nothing is truly random.
So if I stick 49 numbered ping pong balls into a black bag, are you going to tell me you can pick out an exact number from that bag? Of course you can't, you are going to pick out a random ball.
So if I stick 49 numbered ping pong balls into a black bag, are you going to tell me you can pick out an exact number from that bag? Of course you can't, you are going to pick out a random ball.
Let's change that situation a bit. Let's say a different person put his hand into the bag and got a ball. If you went back in time, and didn't interfere at all, the balls would be in the same position, and the person would put his hand in the same way, so he would get the same ball. Would that not happen?
You don't know what is going to happen, because the machine isn't going to produce the exact same results.
Why would it not, everything is exactly the same if you went back in time.
If that were the case, why doesn't the machine produce the same numbers every week?
Because everything is not the same. The balls are different, the timing is different.
Just because it produced the numbers last Saturday in one pattern, doesn't mean if you went back in time you could reproduce the exact same results
That's exactly what it means provided you don't change anything in the past.
each time a program is run to reach a pseudo-random number, it isn't going to produce the same result
It is if every condition is exactly the same.
And you're ignoring the fact that the machine could be the ping pong ball variety.
No i'm not, the computer was an example. I already explained why a ping pong ball version would be the same, the balls are the same position, the person is pressing it at the same time, and unless you change one of these, it's going to keep happening that way no matter how many times you go back.
How can that be anything but random?
You just said why. "a ball being pulled out at a given interval"
Are you going to tell me that the balls will strike each other in the exact same place on two separate occassions?
Yes, if all the conditions are the same.
That I would love to see. Someone would have to be incredibly skilled (some would say freakishly skilled) to reproduce the exact force, angle etc. to enable an identical result to the first throw.
They wouldn't need to. If you went back in time, and they were still there thinking that this was first time they've ever done this, why would they have changed any sort of their movement? If someone punched a wall and broke his hand, you go back 5 seconds, the guy punches the wall the exact same way, you go back 5 seconds again, the guy punches the wall the exact same way. The guy doesn't know he punched the wall and broke his hand, his actions will always be exactly the same, and only thing to break this pattern is for your intervention.
Show me one example of someone throwing a die repeatedly and receiving the same number every time without the die being loaded.
I never said it would, though i just realized i misread your post. I though you just said it was impossible for a die to have the same number twice, but you meant it's impossible to repeat the exact same motions, which it's not. because if you went back in time, those motions never happened to begin with, and they're happening for their first time then. Given the exact same situation, why wouldn't the human brain make the same decision? When i say exact, i mean every conceivable factor, memories and time include. If you never had the past memory of going through the situation, why would you change the decision next time? Free choice hardly exists within the human brain, it's all circuits of nerves, and those circuits will react the same way under the same conditions.
So if I stick 49 numbered ping pong balls into a black bag, are you going to tell me you can pick out an exact number from that bag? Of course you can't, you are going to pick out a random ball.
Assuming i can't look at those balls, no, because i don't know which ball is which. I can pick out a ball, but my pick isn't random "I" picked it. "I" chose to pick that ball, from whatever possessed me to do that. It's also not random where the balls are in there, you put them in there. You may not have payed attention where each went, but your actions aren't random, you subconsciously decided how to put each ball in.
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