Forums → WEPR → Evolution, creationism and the school cirriculum
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Well to start out i dont beleive in evoltuion so the fact that other things cant be taught really ticks me off but i just want to see what people think and why.
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What exactly can't you believe about what you're hearing? If you clarify then we can perhaps go down a specific route of discussion - closed statements get us nowhere.
I haven't heard yet one flaw in evolution but many flaws in creationism (and religion).
It would be nice to have an actual topic specifically to debate about instead of debating the HOLE topics agains each other.
haven't heard yet one flaw in evolution but many flaws in creationism (and religion).
One major flaw in all theories involving random chance and evolution creating life, is logic. If the universe is created totally randomly how has logic come about? How did you think logically about the arguments you just made, and how am I writing this statement with logic, if everything came about randomly. This idea can be very hard to rap your head around so please take the time to let this sink in before you formulate a rebuttal. (P.S. for me to fully understand the idea of logic being unable to come bout in a random universe took me quite awhile also so I'm not trying to slander you or say your to stupid to understand it!
How did you think logically about the arguments you just made, and how am I writing this statement with logic, if everything came about randomly.
I would hardly call what your doing logic considering we have already pointed out several times that what your saying are not the definitions of evolution, but rather a fallacy and talking about other theories. It's not like you even had to go back all that far in this thread to find this information either. But hey you have shown a complete lack in ability to learn or think critically so far so why start now?
To MegaGrayWolf,
Do you not believe that evolution happens randomly?
My point was that you can not obtain logic from random chance, however if the universe was created by a logical being than it would make complete sense that all of his creation would follow logical rules
[url=http://books.google.com/books?id=173ipWCxlEgC&rintsec=frontcover&dq=ultimate+proof+for+creation+Logic&source=bl&ots=e7ZchE4A9k&sig=W6eBB-iQk6Tj3UTxm87qmx1soeQ&hl=en&ei=PR3iTIGNNIq-sAPBuc1m&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFMQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=ultimate%20proof%20for%20creation%20Logic&f=false]
http://books.google.com/books?id=173ipWCxlEgC&rintsec=frontcover&dq=ultimate+proof+for+creation+Logic&source=bl&ots=e7ZchE4A9k&sig=W6eBB-iQk6Tj3UTxm87qmx1soeQ&hl=en&ei=PR3iTIGNNIq-sAPBuc1m&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFMQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=ultimate%20proof%20for%20creation%20Logic&f=false
I hope that the second one works,
its a link to the first few pages on the logic argument agains evolution.
Do you not believe that evolution happens randomly?
There are random elements involved but it isn't entirely so. For instance the process of natural selection is not random.
Agreed but random and significant mutations must occur for the evolutionary process to create what we have today (such as RNA to DNA which you made sound quite trivial but would actually be a significant evolutionary leap)
i personally don't see why evolution and creationism can't be viewed as the same thing.
for those of you who don't believe in a higher power... i'm sorry for saying something that's going to send flack my way. Evolution can be measured. You can see it in the body parts of animals around today compared to the body parts of those same type of organisms that were around hundreds of years ago... on average... bird's beaks from 1 species have been measured and seen to be significantly different from the preserved remains of birds from years past...
such a broad generalized statement can easily be seen as made up but I promise I read it somewhere... I don't know where. It may've been made up. I don't feel like looking for it.
Mutations occur randomly in DNA... this is the cause of many maladies like cancers and diseases. The chance for a beneficial mutation to occur is infinitesimally small... the chance of all of the beneficial mutations to occur that have occurred in all of the organisms that have ever lived is even more infintesimally smaller than that.
The ratio of the possibility of occurrence for the first one could be viewed as our moon compared to our star.... which is billions of times larger
the ratio of the possibility of occurrence for the 2nd one could be viewed as a single atom compared our sun.
the smaller of both comparisons being the chance of occurence of course
the symbolism used is not scientifically proven... I just think that if thought about, then everyone could maybe agree on that. If not... then... oopsies
I think that for evolution to have occurred at the magnitude it has without everything instead getting cancer and dying there would need to be a guiding hand that has painstakingly directed the mutations to have occurred in a beneficial way.
for me... I recall somewhere it being said that man was created out of dirt/mud/etc... so I view God as a potter (bear with the symbolism please)... every species and sub species that has ever been I view as its own clay pot perpetually on the potter's wheel. If the potter decides that his creation doesn't need something on it, then he removes that piece of the pot. If he deems it necessary to add something to it, then he gently works in new material and forms whatever he thinks needs to be formed over time.
according to this frame of thought, I don't see why it would be impossible for us, humans, to have been shaped from a more primitive, simian, (monkey) ancestor by God himself. The bible says "days" in the book of genesis... I personally think that God's "days" don't equate to our own. This now only tells me that it took a very long time to create everything... and that still accommodates both in my mind.
According to all of the "roof" of either way... there may or may not be a God or a higher power. I personally believe in one. There is that small chance that all of this did somehow happen of its own accord... and there's also the chance that it didn't. I guess I'll have my answer when I'm dead.
Now as for the religion in school issue.... public schools aren't allowed to do anything Jesus related unless it is student led.... or atleast a student is the only one that could lead prayer at my high school foot ball games. for the most part, I see us, the US, as a mostly Christian dominated society...
as I see it, this means that the powers that be in our government are hyper sensitive to how Christians are viewed by the rest of the nation... other faiths are generally allowed to do whatever it is that they want to do regarding their faith in public and at schools... if they weren't then someone would get sued for being the religious equivalent of a racist. but... since the majority of the religious population is some form of Christian here in the US, if we were allowed to do as we please with respect to publicly operated facilites (ie schools) like the others then we would for the most part dominate, overshadow, evelope, engulf..(what have u)... the other minorities. There would then be trouble for the lack of accomodation of the minorities and someone would end up sued...
I know that last paragraph was somewhat of a stretch, but I hope you can get something out of it. it was hurriedly put together so its still a little crude and not as well thought up as I would have liked. I mean things aren't exactly as I have described them but I hope that it has made some sense. :-/
I want to apologize... I haven't read any more than maybe 3 pages worth of posts. Reading all 68 pages just wasn't going to happen. I hope I haven't beaten any dead horses that have already been beaten to a pulp
My point was that you can not obtain logic from random chance,
"We have logic there for God exists" is as huge of a step as "we exist so God must exist". Even if we could accept this as proof of God's existence you still haven't proven your specific God.
Agreed but random and significant mutations must occur for the evolutionary process to create what we have today (such as RNA to DNA which you made sound quite trivial but would actually be a significant evolutionary leap)
Don't mistake something easily happening for something trivial. Also significant changes (while they do happen) wouldn't be necessary, just a bunch of little ones. Which is easily observed happening.
@Sonatavarius
bird's beaks from 1 species have been measured and seen to be significantly different from the preserved remains of birds from years past...
It would seem birds at one point didn't even have beaks, such as evidence with the archeopteryx. We have even been able to reactivate these now dormant genes in chickens.
The chance for a beneficial mutation to occur is infinitesimally small.
How do you figure that? Also you have to keep in mind the time scale being worked with. Most mutations are benign. Some are harmful, those die out. Some are beneficial, those survive. Also a previously harmful mutations can become helpful depending on the environment.
Let me guess your going to have this followed up with some completely made up astronomically large number.
The ratio of the possibility of occurrence for the first one could be viewed as our moon compared to our star.... which is billions of times larger
the ratio of the possibility of occurrence for the 2nd one could be viewed as a single atom compared our sun.
Called that one. The numbers you ascribing are meaningless. It's like saying the possibility of me making the last post I did was 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 so it couldn't possibly have happened with out a higher power then myself guiding it.
I think that for evolution to have occurred at the magnitude it has without everything instead getting cancer and dying there would need to be a guiding hand that has painstakingly directed the mutations to have occurred in a beneficial way.
We call it natural selection. Those with harmful treats die, those with beneficial treats live.
for me... I recall somewhere it being said that man was created out of dirt/mud/etc... so I view God as a potter (bear with the symbolism please)...
The Bible actually, usually claiming it was dust or dirt. Which is not the claim of science. Considering the story of genesis is so riddled with logical flaws that even many Christians done even regard the story as a true account, I wouldn't call it a reliable source to base a hypothesis on.
according to this frame of thought, I don't see why it would be impossible for us, humans, to have been shaped from a more primitive, simian, (monkey) ancestor by God himself.
Keep in mind that we have been able to observe evolutionary changed occur, not once have we observed a deity intervening in those changed. This proves that such changed do not necessitate God's intervention. So if God has directed evolution his involvement would be comparable to someone opening an automatic door for another person.
The bible says "days" in the book of genesis... I personally think that God's "days" don't equate to our own.
Considering the Bible was written for us why would God use a time frame we have no way of understanding rather then the one we live with?
According to all of the "roof" of either way... there may or may not be a God or a higher power.
Since there is no proof then it's reasonable to assume such a being doesn't exist. Further more if we are being more specific with the God of the Christian Bible, the claims of this God as yet don't match the evidence presented.
other faiths are generally allowed to do whatever it is that they want to do regarding their faith in public and at schools...
All of them would equally not be allowed to have their various religious concepts taught as fact or an alternative either. So asking or demanding that creation be taught in schools is just looking for preferential treatment.
I want to apologize... I haven't read any more than maybe 3 pages worth of posts. Reading all 68 pages just wasn't going to happen. I hope I haven't beaten any dead horses that have already been beaten to a pulp
No problem, your views were worth reading.
It would seem birds at one point didn't even have beaks, such as evidence with the archeopteryx. We have even been able to reactivate these now dormant genes in chickens.
Do you think we could bring back the species using the same process? If so, we'd have a far greater understanding of the past. I think.
Do you think we could bring back the species using the same process? If so, we'd have a far greater understanding of the past. I think.
I think we could eventually get a close facsimile.
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