This problem of The existence of Evil and the existence of God at the same seems to come up here on AG, more than any other argument against Christianity, (which i find odd since there are better arguments out there...) so I thought i'd just make one topic on the subject, to centralize the debate. Christians please add or change anything i'm about to say, atheists/agnostics have a swing at what i'm about to put forward, and if anyone has a different way of looking at it, please go ahead.
Here's the argument, usually, 1.God exists. 2.God is omnipotent and omniscient. 3.God is all-benevolent. 4. All-benevolent beings are opposed to all evil. 5. All-benevolent beings who can eliminate evil will do so immediately when they become aware of it. 6. Evil still exists 7. Therefore, God does not exist or he is not omniscient/all-benevolent.
The problem with this argument is #5. The word immediately. As with most people's thought process, why does evil still exist?? You must keep in mind of this. How can you possibly constrain a time frame to an eternal being? God is not bound by time, we know from the several prophecies within the bible assigning days or years to a specific event have rarely come in those human time periods, we must therefore assume that Immediately to a being outside of time means absolutely nothing. We know by the following
"3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." Revelations 21:3-5
that Evil will end on earth, and that is all that is required of God. He will, according to our finite universe, eventually abolish all evil from the earth.
That still does not address what I discussed. If God can do anything - EXPLICITLY described in the Bible - then he must, must be able to abolish evil at any moment. To do otherwise is malevolent, not benevolent.
Have you been reading anything that i've written? God does not abide by time. Our idea of instantaneous means nothing to an infinite being. Therefore we must eliminate the "immediately" from the argument, and replace it with will. Since God will, according to revelations, eliminate evil, there can indeed still be a God.
I've been reading everything that you've written, and it still does not make sense because you keep limiting what your all-powerful god can do.
You feel that because god is infinite, he doesn't see things as instantaneously as we do. Considering that he and Jesus are supposedly one and the same, he can obviously inhabit the finite world. Jesus was finite. Jesus is God. Therefore God can also be finite if needed.
Second point: You are purposely limiting yourself to this evil argument because it breaks down when you consider the belief of prayer. Using your logic, a prayer that is dependent on time, such as a quick prayer for protection, would be impossible for God to answer because he does not seem to understand or inhabit our finite world.
Third point: Again, ANYTHING that limits omnipotence, by definition, makes that omnipotence irrelevant and impossible. That's why omnipotence is impossible, but since Christianity still claims to have a God that IS omnipotent, that argument must be broken down. The fact that god cannot immediately abolish evil would mean that he is either not omnipotent or he is malevolent. Either way, he's not god.
Let's not go into the whole trinity thing, because thats something i really don't think anyone can explain, i'm not trying to run away from the argument here, but i just don't know if that explanable.
Let me begin with your other two points by saying, God can stop Evil "immediatly". He is perfectly capable of doing so. Humans believe that evil must end immediately, however the infinte God is not bound by the idea of immediate. He is not being malevolent if he does not act immediately because time does not exist in an infinte realm...
If that just seems like a repeated point, then i'm going to have to get back to you. I'm leaving town for a week, but when i get back i'll be able to talk to the guy who introduced this idea to me. Perhaps, if this thread still exists, i will be able to get an answer for you. Sorry, but there is indeed a limit to my understanding of these types of arguments...
for God to abolish evil he would have to kill every human
Come on now, i know your imagination is better than that. I'm sure your trying to be funny...but seriously. Adam and Eve were humans w/o understanding of Good and Evil. God could very easily return all humans to that with the blink of an eye and evil would be gone.
In my opinion, the concept of God makes no sense.
And this fall within the thread topic...how? I'm talking about how evil still exists if God exists, and you say the concept of God doesn't make sense. Stop trying to just amp up the # of your thread posts, or atleast give us a reason...
I love how off topic this is getting. Anyway, lol, i hope you understand that the "that" within my sentence there, is adam and eve's ignorance to good and evil. I was saying that God could change our mindsets, not magically take people into heaven before the final days begin...not to mention that the rapture is a hoax, but thats a whole different argument...
But the concept of "Adam and Eve" clashes with evolution and cavemen, which is a proven theory.
Evolution is far from proven. There are thousands of "missing links". There should be fossil links between kingdoms and between phylums and between classes, that don't exist. Until that point, evolution can not be called proven.
Thats messing with free will which defeats the purpose of worship God wouldn't do it
First of all i suggest you take some classes in theology in order to get on some stabler ground than your currently on theologically...other than that, couldn't=/= wouldn't. God can change our mindsets, which is all i was saying. I never said he would do it, i just said he could do it.
God could very easily return all humans to that with the blink of an eye and evil would be gone.
Again, i never said he would. Therefore, your post in saying that he would is frivolous, no one said that he was going to. I mean, unless your trying to prove to yourself that you are indeed right, than you don't need to say anything more about it...
Again, i never said he would. Therefore, your post in saying that he would is frivolous, no one said that he was going to. I mean, unless your trying to prove to yourself that you are indeed right, than you don't need to say anything more about it...
