This problem of The existence of Evil and the existence of God at the same seems to come up here on AG, more than any other argument against Christianity, (which i find odd since there are better arguments out there...) so I thought i'd just make one topic on the subject, to centralize the debate. Christians please add or change anything i'm about to say, atheists/agnostics have a swing at what i'm about to put forward, and if anyone has a different way of looking at it, please go ahead.
Here's the argument, usually, 1.God exists. 2.God is omnipotent and omniscient. 3.God is all-benevolent. 4. All-benevolent beings are opposed to all evil. 5. All-benevolent beings who can eliminate evil will do so immediately when they become aware of it. 6. Evil still exists 7. Therefore, God does not exist or he is not omniscient/all-benevolent.
The problem with this argument is #5. The word immediately. As with most people's thought process, why does evil still exist?? You must keep in mind of this. How can you possibly constrain a time frame to an eternal being? God is not bound by time, we know from the several prophecies within the bible assigning days or years to a specific event have rarely come in those human time periods, we must therefore assume that Immediately to a being outside of time means absolutely nothing. We know by the following
"3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." Revelations 21:3-5
that Evil will end on earth, and that is all that is required of God. He will, according to our finite universe, eventually abolish all evil from the earth.
Haha, sorry that the topic ended up getting off topic, twitch. I was having a good time actually debating with you.
Back on topic, though...I do see a little more clearly what your point was from your second paragraph, so let me approach this a different way.
True, how a god would see something compared with how we would see it are completely different things. Still, however, considering that we are supposedly created in god's image and are inconceivably important to him - enough to send himself/his son to die - what should ultimately be the important, unselfish feeling, would be to act on how WE feel, not how he feels.
True, how a god would see something compared with how we would see it are completely different things. Still, however, considering that we are supposedly created in god's image and are inconceivably important to him - enough to send himself/his son to die - what should ultimately be the important, unselfish feeling, would be to act on how WE feel, not how he feels.
First, i'm glad that made more sense. Next, i don't think i've personally ever come up against this train of thought, but i'll do what i can to answer. Yes God loves us. Loves us enough to send Christ to die. Yes we are made in his image. But whats the underlying purpose of keeping us alive? The first catechism of course! What is man's ultimate purpose?- To glorify God and enjoy him forever. God created man to earn glorification. He knew the only way to attain worship was by making man with some of his own attributes, that way his own attributes are being used in sacrifice to him. We were made to love God. God did not create man to love man, he created man to love him. So in reality, God loves himself more than Man, therefore God will abolish evil on his "timeframe" (if you will) before ours.
True, how a god would see something compared with how we would see it are completely different things. Still, however, considering that we are supposedly created in god's image and are inconceivably important to him - enough to send himself/his son to die - what should ultimately be the important, unselfish feeling, would be to act on how WE feel, not how he feels.
Ergo, abolish evil immediately - our immediately.
But who is being selfish right now? Does how we feel trump his ultimate purpose? Can our finite mind comprehend the time he will come back to abolish evil?
But your questions are indeed sound. Everybody has to face the question of evil at least once in their lifetime. Job, in the Bible, asked the same question. All his children died, his livestock were carried away, and he was afflicted with boils, and he asked God "Why? Why is this happening to me? Why do I suffer like this?" And God replied, "Who are you? Were you with me when I created the Earth? Are you God?" And then God did the single thing that answered all of Job's questions. He showed himself to Job. What is suffering but an opportunity to experience his presence? I have heard so many testimonies, and none of them said, "Yeah, everything was really great, and then Jesus showed up." All of the experiences happen at their lowest point, but they were rescued by his presence. You see, suffering is the way that God comes closer to us. He did it in AD 33 and he continues to do so today. God has looked to the long term, where he has rescued us from the darkest evil to infinite joy, so that we can enjoy its sweetness.
Let me use an analogy for this. Let's say God is a person with two fruits. One of them is a plain, red round fruit, but the other has a very exotic look; it looks extremely tasty. God offers man the plain fruit, saying, "Take this, it's really good." But the man quickly grabs the exotic fruit and gobbles it up, and it is bitter. It is so bitter and poisonous that the man just starts to gag and throw up. Now God offers the plain fruit. There are two possibilities. The man can say, "I don't trust you," deny the fruit, and then die from the poison. Or, the man can take the plain fruit and eat it. This plain fruit is sweet and tasty; it cures his poison and overrides the bitterness. It is good. But most importantly, the man appreciates it fully, because he tasted the bitterness of the other fruit. And his decision to stay with God and taste his fruit is true. Why doesn't God abolish evil immediately? Because there are so many people out there that are wretching and throwing up in pain, because there are so many people that need this fruit to live. Precisely because God is good does he not abolish evil right now, because there is someone worth saving.
You see, suffering is the way that God comes closer to us.
That is repulsive to me.
Suffering is a tragic part of life, and the idea that a benevolent god would use such a vehicle to appear to us is, by nature, malevolent.
This goes back to what I have said before...in our universe, our world, we appreciate joy best when we have experienced anguish. It did not have to be that way, though. God could allow us to experience that exact same joy without the horror if he chose to. After all, he's god.
And his decision to stay with God and taste his fruit is true.
Are you suggesting that if the man had simply trusted the god at first and taken the correct fruit, that his decision would have somehow been invalid? That you have to screw up BEFORE you can make the correct decision?
[/quote]Why doesn't God abolish evil immediately? Because there are so many people out there that are wretching and throwing up in pain, because there are so many people that need this fruit to live. Precisely because God is good does he not abolish evil right now, because there is someone worth saving.[quote]
Again, I'm not following your logic.
Starting from the beginning, there never had to BE evil, or the bitter fruit as it were in your analogy. If he were to abolish evil right now, there would be no outcry from people who are suffering saying, "HEY! We weren't done being in torment yet!" I doubt that anyone would choose to suffer before being given a good option.
I'm also not following why the abolishment of evil is dependent on someone being worth saving. What is wrong with saving everyone else, then "curing" the afflicted?
I hope everyone realizes what a general word "evil" is. It can be many things. If something is good in the eye of one, it's going to be evil in the eye of another. So there is no possible way to wipe out all evil, even if this "God" does exist. And if "He" does, in order to wipe out all evil, he'd have to wipe out himself as well.
If there were a god, someone would consider him evil, and since evil is nothing more than a matter of opinion, he would have to wipe out himself as well.
If there were a god, someone would consider him evil, and since evil is nothing more than a matter of opinion, he would have to wipe out himself as well.
Evil is realitive to humans yes and yes evil is a matter of opinions to humans but god being all knowing would be able to define evil so...
Let's say he existed. If he were the creator of all humans and life, he would be the creator of all evil. And what can be more evil than that? Of course, he doesn't really exist...
Let's say he existed. If he were the creator of all humans and life, he would be the creator of all evil. And what can be more evil than that? Of course, he doesn't really exist...
God created free will and that can turn to evil ...he didn't create evil
This is how I understood this conundrum. Evil was not created by God, and cannot be completely destroyed by God. This is because evil is an absence of God.
Besides, who is to say what is evil and what is not? It all depends on our interpretation of the word. Perhaps we made evil out of what God intended to be good.
