ForumsWEPREvil & God

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eyetwitch
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eyetwitch
737 posts
Shepherd

This problem of The existence of Evil and the existence of God at the same seems to come up here on AG, more than any other argument against Christianity, (which i find odd since there are better arguments out there...) so I thought i'd just make one topic on the subject, to centralize the debate. Christians please add or change anything i'm about to say, atheists/agnostics have a swing at what i'm about to put forward, and if anyone has a different way of looking at it, please go ahead.

Here's the argument, usually,
1.God exists.
2.God is omnipotent and omniscient.
3.God is all-benevolent.
4. All-benevolent beings are opposed to all evil.
5. All-benevolent beings who can eliminate evil will do so immediately when they become aware of it.
6. Evil still exists
7. Therefore, God does not exist or he is not omniscient/all-benevolent.

The problem with this argument is #5. The word immediately. As with most people's thought process, why does evil still exist?? You must keep in mind of this.
How can you possibly constrain a time frame to an eternal being? God is not bound by time, we know from the several prophecies within the bible assigning days or years to a specific event have rarely come in those human time periods, we must therefore assume that Immediately to a being outside of time means absolutely nothing. We know by the following

"3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." Revelations 21:3-5

that Evil will end on earth, and that is all that is required of God. He will, according to our finite universe, eventually abolish all evil from the earth.


And....begin debate!
  • 113 Replies
samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

They say that Satan and God are enemies.... But they also said that Satan is once an angel also but became bad that's why he became a demon....


Ok lets start from the beggining. First there are only three named angels in the bible michael (the warrior) Gabriel (The trumpeter) and Lucifer (Satan/originaly God's music player.) Well Lucifer got jealous one day and went up to God and basicaly said hey lets switch places i want to be God. Lucifer had angels that agreed with him, there was a great battle but of course with God being God, he won. So God cast Lucifer down into hell, hell was only meant for Lucifer and his angels. But because God gave every being free will humans sinned, so that is why in a nut shell God and evil can be togther without God having created evil. Only free will.

( Didn't spell check sorry if there is errors.)
Zootsuit_riot
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Zootsuit_riot
1,523 posts
Nomad

Samy, I thought that angels didn't have free will?

Parsat
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Parsat
2,180 posts
Blacksmith

Hard to say. However, based on the Bible, angels are in fact free beings.

Zootsuit_riot
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Zootsuit_riot
1,523 posts
Nomad

Hard to say. However, based on the Bible, angels are in fact free beings.


Really? I was always taught that they had no free will since they are basically the supreme servants to God.
Drace
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Drace
3,880 posts
Nomad

I think it should be clarified that evil is not a magic thing. Evil is just the labeling of events as 'bad'.

Parsat
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Parsat
2,180 posts
Blacksmith

Really? I was always taught that they had no free will since they are basically the supreme servants to God.


Catholic, I presume?
Zootsuit_riot
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Zootsuit_riot
1,523 posts
Nomad

Catholic, I presume?


Yup. Trying to branch off and understand different denominations of Christianity though. The differences are subtle, but make a huge change.
necromancer
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necromancer
750 posts
Peasant

1.God exists.
2.God is omnipotent and omniscient.
3.God is all-benevolent.
4. All-benevolent beings are opposed to all evil.
5. All-benevolent beings who can eliminate evil will do so immediately when they become aware of it.
6. Evil still exists
7. Therefore, God does not exist or he is not omniscient/all-benevolent.


This argument is not the strongest but there are better forms, such as:

1. If God exists then he is omnipotent and omniscient.
2. God, knowing everything, understands morality and would strive to be a paragon of virtue.
3. A virtuous being is responsible, especially since God's word says we should be responsible. Genesis 17:9 Then God said to Abraham, âYour responsibility is to obey the terms of the covenant. You and all your descendants have this continual responsibility.
4. God, being all powerful, created the universe and all things in it.
5. God is responsible for what happens in the universe he created.
6. There is human suffering.
7. God is responsible for not preventing this from happening in his creation.
8. God does not fulfill his role as a virtuous being.
9. He therefore does not exist, or should not be followed as our Lord, being contradictory to himself.

I normally just use this as one of several ways to respond to the ontological argument, i.e. God is prefect. Existence is a perfection. Therefore God exists. saying that perfect beings are responsible.
eyetwitch
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eyetwitch
737 posts
Shepherd

1. If God exists then he is omnipotent and omniscient.
2. God, knowing everything, understands morality and would strive to be a paragon of virtue.
3. A virtuous being is responsible, especially since God's word says we should be responsible. Genesis 17:9 Then God said to Abraham, �Your responsibility is to obey the terms of the covenant. You and all your descendants have this continual responsibility.
4. God, being all powerful, created the universe and all things in it.
5. God is responsible for what happens in the universe he created.
6. There is human suffering.
7. God is responsible for not preventing this from happening in his creation.
8. God does not fulfill his role as a virtuous being.
9. He therefore does not exist, or should not be followed as our Lord, being contradictory to himself.


Your argument however is far easier to counter, even though it looks better, and sounds better its easier.
8. God does not fulfill his role as a virtuous being

My revelations quote in the original post answers this. God will fulfill his role as a virtuous being, therefore can still exist. I don't even have to give all that infinite/finite realm stuff to counter it.
necromancer
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necromancer
750 posts
Peasant

My revelations quote in the original post answers this. God will fulfill his role as a virtuous being, therefore can still exist. I don't even have to give all that infinite/finite realm stuff to counter it.


I don't think the Revelations quote sufficiently answers the argument. The implication of my argument is that God was irresponsible in with his original creation, and people have suffered as a result. Him coming down in the future does not atone for past errors, he is still responsible for those who he let die. He shows repentance, yes, but does not end the problems to start with. Besides, reparations could be perceived as not creating the necessary retribution for misdeeds, especially when God does not suffer from it. For example, if I injured a person, they could sue me, and I would pay up. In this exchange I lose something when held accountable; whereas God being all powerful, can never lose anything and thus it is impossible to enact any sense of metaphysical justice on him. Thus, the moment God infringes upon the moral code, he is held infinitely responsible because he can never make true amends. (Especially consider that God prefers retribution for punishments demonstrated by his destruction of cities and such, Psalms 94:1 Lord, the God of vengeance,
O God of vengeance, let your glorious justice shine forth!
)
Parsat
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Parsat
2,180 posts
Blacksmith

I'm also unsure about how #3 is supposed to related to the premise. It clearly states: "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come." In context, God blessed Abraham by promising to bless him with many descendants and make them a great nation. Abraham's side of the deal was for him and his descendants to be faithful to God. When Abraham's descendants broke their promise, God punished them, because he is just and fair, for breaking their covenant. As such, God showed his responsibility in a virtuous way, by discipline. So your Biblical quote does not support your premise, it actually undermines your whole argument.

necromancer
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necromancer
750 posts
Peasant

@Parsat-
I probably should have done more than take two seconds Googling something like "bible quotation responsibility," that quotation was a rather weak support of the argument. Also, even if it does serve as a means to show an instance of God being responsible, if He is irresponsible one time He can never be perfect.

For better support of the third part:
Luke 12:42 (& Matthew 24:45) And the Lord replied, "A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them." To serve the Lord, one must be responsible and help others.


The Parable of the Three Servants
(Matthew 25:14-30) has the moral of the story as to be responsible.

The Parable of the Lost Sheep (Matthew 18:12-14)
12 If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them wanders away, what will he do? Wonât he leave the ninety-nine others on the hills and go out to search for the one that is lost? 13 And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he will rejoice over it more than over the ninety-nine that didnât wander away! 14 In the same way, it is not my heavenly Fatherâs will that even one of these little ones should perish.

Parsat
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Parsat
2,180 posts
Blacksmith

I'll seek to answer each point one by one.

The implication of my argument is that God was irresponsible in with his original creation, and people have suffered as a result.


And we do recognize the implication. However, God did no wrong. He told us what not to do, and we disobeyed him. I fail to see God's irresponsibility in this, when in fact the real irresponsibility lies with humans, his rebellious creation. As it is said in James 1:13-14: "For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed."

Him coming down in the future does not atone for past errors, he is still responsible for those who he let die. He shows repentance, yes, but does not end the problems to start with.


Whoa, whoa, whoa. This is presupposing way too much here. God does not show repentance because if he is the perfect good, he has nothing to repent. God created life. He could have chosen not to create life, but he did create life, and he made it free. God as the creator of life has the right to take it away; if you don't own life, you have no right to take it away. Furthermore, Jesus' death is ignored, which forgave the sins of mankind. God is just for death at the moment, because "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23), but he has been merciful: he sent his son to forgive us of our sin to give us everlasting life in him.

Besides, reparations could be perceived as not creating the necessary retribution for misdeeds, especially when God does not suffer from it. For example, if I injured a person, they could sue me, and I would pay up. In this exchange I lose something when held accountable; whereas God being all powerful, can never lose anything and thus it is impossible to enact any sense of metaphysical justice on him. Thus, the moment God infringes upon the moral code, he is held infinitely responsible because he can never make true amends.


Remember that the world, our basic ethics, and our lives are his creation; he has the right to change it with his will. He is the supreme good. But also, death is not the end. There is the final judgment, where some will be rewarded, and some will be punished, because he is good and just. To believe that because he is good, he won't do any punishment whatsoever is a contradiction; precisely because he is good and because he is just, he gives punishment.

Especially consider that God prefers retribution for punishments demonstrated by his destruction of cities and such, Psalms 94:1 Lord, the God of vengeance,
O God of vengeance, let your glorious justice shine forth!


Now look at the entire context of the psalm. Here are a few snippets from the psalm as well:

"He will repay them for their sins
and destroy them for their wickedness;
the LORD our God will destroy them."

"Does he who disciplines nations not punish?
Does he who teaches man lack knowledge?
The LORD knows the thoughts of man;
he knows that they are futile.
Blessed is the man you discipline, O LORD,
the man you teach from your law."

The Psalm speaks about God's "vengeance": how he will punish those who are evil, and save those who are good. I see nothing but an affirmation of his goodness once the whole context is taken into account.

I've also heard the objections over the God of the Old Testament many times, and my conclusion is that you have to understand the culture. These people that the Israelites conquered were evil and corrupt. They did abominable acts that disgusted the Lord, and he had to punish the guilty. Furthermore, Israelites always offered an envoy of peace before going into an enemy city. If they declined, punishment would fall on their heads. If they declined, often times they would send the innocent from the city to flee: women and children, leaving the most hardened individuals. So my reply is that they had it coming. It seems cruel, but it is not; it is discipline.
pirateninja666
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pirateninja666
6 posts
Nomad

Because the world is an animal related to humans.

pirateninja666
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pirateninja666
6 posts
Nomad

The acorn is the discussion of sin, self-criticism, the inquisition of
conscience; here the emotion produced by the giant, modern industry, the place of the healthy intellect. Since sickness is inherent in
christianity, it follows him....

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