This problem of The existence of Evil and the existence of God at the same seems to come up here on AG, more than any other argument against Christianity, (which i find odd since there are better arguments out there...) so I thought i'd just make one topic on the subject, to centralize the debate. Christians please add or change anything i'm about to say, atheists/agnostics have a swing at what i'm about to put forward, and if anyone has a different way of looking at it, please go ahead.
Here's the argument, usually, 1.God exists. 2.God is omnipotent and omniscient. 3.God is all-benevolent. 4. All-benevolent beings are opposed to all evil. 5. All-benevolent beings who can eliminate evil will do so immediately when they become aware of it. 6. Evil still exists 7. Therefore, God does not exist or he is not omniscient/all-benevolent.
The problem with this argument is #5. The word immediately. As with most people's thought process, why does evil still exist?? You must keep in mind of this. How can you possibly constrain a time frame to an eternal being? God is not bound by time, we know from the several prophecies within the bible assigning days or years to a specific event have rarely come in those human time periods, we must therefore assume that Immediately to a being outside of time means absolutely nothing. We know by the following
"3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." Revelations 21:3-5
that Evil will end on earth, and that is all that is required of God. He will, according to our finite universe, eventually abolish all evil from the earth.
I can see how you would object to that. Indeed, it has been a difficulty for theologians past to define his omnipotence. Now I use the most commonly accepted theological definition that God has all power, and that he uses it in his holy nature that he never deviates from. The fact is, God can do no evil; he can do nothing wrong. James 1:13 states that "God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone." Psalm 5:4 states that God does not take pleasure in evil.
The other problem with the omnipotence paradox is that if you reword the question, it is actually quite absurd. If God is infinite, then what you are asking with a stone so big even God can't lift it is: "Is there something more than infinity?" We may postulate endlessly and philosophically about this. We can go into the deepest metaphysical and quantum thought, but infinity is the concept of forever. It is eternity, which does not end and does not begin. So the question is meaningless in itself, because it is a logical contradiction.
That's a good point. I don't find the omnipotence paradox that compelling, really, since we are talking about such abstract ideals. But one of the problems with assigning all these ideals of human qualities to God is that the nature of God becomes incomprehensible. One major theological question (which I think is more compelling than the argument given at the beginning of this thread) is "Why is God good?" If there is a greater goodness that God must follow, then He is limited in His power and thus, not omniscient. If God is good simply because He embodies goodness and thus everything He does is, by definition, good then that defeats our human standards of morality. Honestly, I still don't find this argument that compelling either. But I think it gets at the core of the problem of evil. We cannot attribute concepts like beneficence or omnipotence when we really can't understand what these terms mean. We might have a definition of what they mean, but that does not imply we would understand a being with these qualities. That being said, I think it's far easier to just deny the existence of such a being rather than try to explain its nature.
Yes, I am not particularly convinced either by purely logical models of "Therefore God exists" or "Therefore God does not exist." I've always held that like anything else there is evidence for and against God. And it is easier to just throw up your arms and say, you know what, we'll never understand, let's just not believe in it. But to me, I feel that it is laziness. I want to know with a sure feeling of truth "Is this theory right", "Is this postulation wrong", and so on. I may be undecided temporarily on some things, there are things that I won't know, but I stand firm on what I've investigated deeply and put my faith in.
It's interesting, because every time I look at evil, it seems much more mysterious to me. I ask like everyone else why it is here, why does it affect me, but I like to look at it from a different perspective as well. How is it that we attribute good or evil to a deity? How is it that there is good in the world despite evil's existence? How is it that we even have the belief that there is evil and good? For some reason, these questions never get asked or answered by anyone, except by only one source I've read.
Religion(Church) is a force that puts words in God's mouth. I KNOW God is real(faith)and I listen to him, not the Pope. Anyone can listen, but most don't, or listen to others who say they know what he says.
God created this Earth for peace and love, but since war and killings has been brought upon everyone he has now seen the true Us.
We have started killing people and should be rightfully punished, like taking a man shooting him in the head, going to court and saying "Im sorry I didn't mean to" will they let you be free?
Wow, i've been away from the forums for to long, oh well Parsat seems to be doing a much better job than i would have been doing rebutting arguments
theone99, first of all i'm not sure what your trying to say, but there are some problems with what your saying.
God created this Earth for peace and love, but since war and killings has been brought upon everyone he has now seen the true Us.
We have started killing people and should be rightfully punished, like taking a man shooting him in the head, going to court and saying "Im sorry I didn't mean to" will they let you be free?
God, being omniscient and outside of time, has always seen the 'true' us. There was a never a 'time' when God did not know what we would do and are going to do. Second, "we have started killing people"? Are you trying to imply that humans haven't been killing each other until nowadays? I hope not, killing has been apart of humanity since the fall of man...thousands of years.
One thing. The fall of the one we know as Satan was once an amazing angel. He fell because he was full of himself and arrogant. God forsaw this, but did nothing, because it needed to happen. As human beings, we must work our own problems out.
Second, "we have started killing people"? Are you trying to imply that humans haven't been killing each other until nowadays
Wow...
We have started killing people and brought this evil upon ourselves..So the answer to this whole question is "Mankind is the evil and we are why it is still here God could take it away on his command if he wanted, but punishment for our sins has us where we are" God did not make us to fight with one another..So being why would he make us to kill others?
We have started killing people and brought this evil upon ourselves..So the answer to this whole question is "Mankind is the evil and we are why it is still here God could take it away on his command if he wanted, but punishment for our sins has us where we are" God did not make us to fight with one another..So being why would he make us to kill others?
Ok God loves us he wouldn't just get rid of us. Also the first murder was after the fall Cain killed his brother Abel out of jealousy, God didn't create us to kill.
But the premise that "Evil is here because mankind is here" is completely compatible with there being no god whatsoever. So, how does this solve the problem of evil?
But the premise that "Evil is here because mankind is here" is completely compatible with there being no god whatsoever. So, how does this solve the problem of evil?
Actualy evil is here becasue free t is here. Satan wasn't a human and he fell, this isn't really a way to prove God exists just to show evil and God can co-exist.
Major typo sorry. What i meant was evil is only here because free will. With the reference to satan i meant that he choose evil, he was an angel which shows it's not just mankind.
