ForumsWEPRSchool: Teaching us what we can't do?

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Nerdius
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Nerdius
420 posts
Nomad

Now, there was a recent survey. It went to many kindergarten classes at the beginning of the year and asked questions like:
How many of you can sing?
How many of you can dance?
How many of you can draw?
And if they could, they raised their hand. In Kindergarten, nearly everyone raised their hand.
They went to universities.
They asked the same questions they asked the Kindergardeners.
Almost nobody raised their hand.
Is "Education" teaching us what we can't do?

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Nerdius
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Nerdius
420 posts
Nomad

Even if you can do anything, and I believe you can, you need to be given the proper tools. One of these tools is imagination. Another is Creativity. These are two classes that can't be taught, but should. In the end, I'd say these matter the most. Drawing is being creative, and if they can't draw then I guess they aren't creative. How many of you can dance or draw are both imaginative. The people who say they can't draw or sing have been taught that they can't do it.

Graham
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Graham
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Nomad

The people who say they can't draw or sing have been taught that they can't do it
people who say they can't draw or dance may believe that but inevitably they will try it someday and it will disprove it
Nerdius
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Nerdius
420 posts
Nomad

People don't do it themselves, the people "educating" them do it to them. If you are being told by an elder figure that you can't do something, most people are taught to respect the authority figure and agree with them, teaching them what they can't do.

Nerdius
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Nerdius
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Nomad

Sorry, it seems my post was written at the same time as Graham's.
If they have been taught they can't do it, they most likely won't do it.
Also as I said, their imagination and creativity is taken away, so they could not imagine not being that way, and would not try it out.

Nerdius
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Nerdius
420 posts
Nomad

Yeah,well even if they shouldn't, they still do

Graham
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Graham
8,051 posts
Nomad

If you are being told by an elder figure that you can't do something, most people are taught to respect the authority figure and agree with them


what about the rebellious teenage years? defy authority and be coolio

and you say most people are
stereotypical and untrue in other people's opinions
Ricador
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Ricador
3,722 posts
Shepherd

If you really pick you're ass up off the couch and try, you can learn it.

I think Helen Keller is a prime example of this.

Strop
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Strop
10,816 posts
Bard

No, but through the school process, it lowers your self-esteem, it tells you, "You can't do this".


Funny that, I was under the impression the philosophy of school education was precisely the opposite, which was just as bad if not even worse.

But I'm no longer in the primary or secondary schooling system and my tertiary education is by no means a representation of the educational system as a whole for any place. If that's really what kids are coming out with then something is (to state the obvious) going wrong somewhere down the track. I'm not sure where it is that schools "send the message" to kids that they're not able to do certain things, but I have an idea.

One thing you (Nerdius, the original poster) might be trying to suggest is that you believe that the principles of education is misguided or that it should be more vocational in its approach, and I personally believe that the state of the country's economy is most pertinent to appropriate national educational focus (i.e. skills shortage = bad).

Another thing could be to point the finger at "substandard teaching" but so many fingers are pointed at this in so many places that I'm not sure where to begin on this point.

Back to my original point, the thing about "giving kids self-esteem" is that by and large I get the feeling that while our understanding of developmental processes improves, its application has degraded to a mish-mash of half-baked new-age ideals that either conflict or are vague to the point of being meaningless. Wrapped up in sentimentalist notions that conflate equality and egalitarianism, to put it simply we believe in false magic with the power of rhetoric with phrases like "no child left behind" and "fair go for all".

The principles that should never be forgotten throughout parenting and education, IMO, would be "resilience" and "independence". If we (or in the case of this forum, the people trying to direct your studies) could for a moment be more realistic and certain about their goals then maybe we might get somewhere.
dogyh
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dogyh
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Nomad

i think school is useless before you get to 7th class

Strop
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Strop
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Bard

Good luck going straight to seventh class.

Then again it's possible that the educational system could be teaching you jack-all...I know I could have skipped over a lot of the fluff myself.

Matty360
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Matty360
764 posts
Nomad

I hate doing music and dance, teh force you to do something you don't want to do at all in life. It's that disaster until you get to choose what you want to do.

Wait... am I going off topic?

Nerdius
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Nerdius
420 posts
Nomad

Yes, you are going a bit off topic. Also, things like "no child left behind" are mainly exceptions. In the country, little kids go to school thinking they can do anything. However, when they leave high school most just think that they'll work on the family farm. Because they have been taught that that is all they can do.

Alric
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Alric
52 posts
Nomad

If that were true nerdius then that would only be because school is teaching people how to be realistic.Anyone who wants to have a job in Engineering will learn that School teaches them what they can do,and will do in the future.


Teaching people how to be realistic? "Realism" is setting your expectations lower because you aren't as talented in a particular area? Just because your talents lie in one direction doesn't mean that's the direction you should go. If you really want to be an astronaut/fireman/research chemist, you should pursue your dream, not follow the "realistic" path set for you by someone else.

No one in school ever told me I'd be good at logistics, which is what I do for the U.S. Army. And no one ever told me I should be an entrepreneur and start my own small business, which I've also done. I learned facts in school, not skills. I learned how to regurgitate information. I never learned how to think creatively or dream big. I was never taught people skills. I was never really motivated to pursue whatever I wanted to do. The modern education system (and society in general) love to tell you that you can be anything you want to be and do anything you want to do, but then they turn around and tell you that to reach your goals, you need a higher education.

But what does higher education really teach you? The average tuition cost for a four-year public school degree is approximately $25,000. That doesn't include dorm or rent fees for the year, or any other expenses as a result. And for that $25,000, what do you get? You get a bunch of professors who make $40,000 a year teaching you how to make $40,000 a year. You learn to regurgitate the necessary information in order to pass the class. You don't learn to think creatively. With the exception of perhaps Philosophy and some kinds of English degrees, you really just have to copy the facts into your head and paste them onto the exam. And anyone with a Philosophy or English degree will tell you that your only options are to teach it or pursue more education.

obviously there's a serious independence lacking in youth these days


That's because parents and teachers treat kids like... kids, rather than treating them like adults. When people reach 18 in this country, they're often unprepared to run their own lives because they've never been pushed to learn independence.

Lenore Skenazy, a columnist from Manhattan, dropped her 9-year-old son in a Bloomingdale's and let him find his own way home. Then she wrote a column about it and was villified by the media. The following is a short story from Reader's Digest.

Let's Stop Scaring Our Kids

This woman is a genius. As she continues to raise her "Free Range Kid" he will learn independance and will never lack for self-confidence or the thought process needed to take care of himself in a situation.

Think about the number of Americans who can't change their own flat tire, can't change their own oil, and when presented with a tough situation, immediately crack out the cell phone and call for help. And who do they call (besides AAA)? One of those guys who can do all that "hand-on stuff" because his dad taught him a few basic skills. Or one of those girls whose mom made sure she wouldn't be that lady stuck on the side of the road, pacing in high heels and trying not to break a nail while someone else fixes her problem.

You know they don't teach basic mechanics in school anymore? You've gotta go to a vocational school (if one is available in your area), and those classes are often only available if you're part of the vocational program. They don't often teach basic cooking skills, either. So how is a young American supposed to make his way in the world if he can't even change his own flat tire or grill himself some chicken? Children don't learn life skills in school anymore. High school doesn't prepare you for life, it prepares you for college. So if you're not headed to college, what have you truly learned?

Alric
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
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Shepherd

This thread makes no sence. You said that there was a survay asking students in gindergarten 3 questions. How many of them can dance, sing, or draw.

Kindergarten teachers don't teach the kids how to dance, sing, or draw. You completely missed the point of the survey. The survey has nothing to do with education. It has to do with creativity and self esteem and how your perceptions of your skills change over time.

Granted, many kindergarted teachers do have an "art time" and some kids may be encouraged to dance and sing. This is not teaching them. You could however say that the school is encouraging kids to do things they later won't do/can't do. However, this is a very dumb arguement. Any teacher that encourages their students to dance, sing, or draw, does so to help bring out the creative side to their students, not teach them how to do things they won't use in the future. Of course, none of this stuff matters because the point of the survey, as represented in the opening thread, has nothing to do with education at all.

Alric
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Alric
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Nomad

The survey has nothing to do with education. It has to do with creativity and self esteem and how your perceptions of your skills change over time.


NoName - What are the two most influential factors from age 5 to age 20? Your parents and your teachers. And unfortunately, in many cases, the teachers have more of an effect because kids spend more time with them. So if the only skill you're learning in the education system is regurgitation, how is a young adult to develop a sense of self-confidence? From where is he going to derive his perception of self-worth? All he knows how to do is homework and tests. Maybe he has learned a little about music (band/orchestra/choir) or art (pottery/photography/2D art) or journalism (newspaper/yearbook). But who's going to teach him people skills? Who's going to teach her to dream big?

Who's going to teach them what they're truly capable of?

Alric
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