Forums → WEPR → 5 Point Calvanists
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Im just curious as to how many 5 point Calvanists we have here. If you are one or have a question about them please speak up!
A five point calvanist believes in the 5 points of John Calvin which are summed up in TULIP,
Total Depravity
we are totally dead in our sin and have nothing to do with our salvation it is entirely up to God.
Unconditional Election
God selected His people before the foundations of the earth were made and He has saved each and everyone of them and shall continue.
Limited Atonement
No one other than the elect can be saved.
Irresistible Grace
The elect can do nothing to avoid being saved.
Perseverence of the Saints
God will keep His people and none of them will fall away and everyone of them will reach their final destination, heaven.
There they are. You may think them cruel but God is gracious to save any of us after we have rebeled against Him. We are like clay and he is the potter, when the potter makes a mistake he can easily destroy the clay and start over. But God has been gracious and has given us a second chance. As for election He does not keep people from being saved through this, but rather saves people that without this none would be saved because we are ALL spiritually dead, and a dead person can do nothing on their own to be revived. We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God, and we are all dead in our transgressions, without His grace we would all be damned but through His grace some are saved and this is not unfair. Because He created us can He not therefor do what He wants with us?
Please speak up if your a Calvanist and leave your thoughts either way! Thank you!
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Ok, say its true that it's predetermined, God has saved you and the Holy Spirit now shows you what is right and wrong and being truly saved you have strong convictions to do what is right and avoid what is wrong. If your not saved, your not going to have any reason to follow any rules or feel bad for certain sins that a christian would.
Then again, say its not all predetermined, the same thing still happens with the Holy Spirit and you see it from your point of view not from a Calvanist's, then do you believe that you can lose your salvation?
Ok, say its true that it's predetermined, God has saved you and the Holy Spirit now shows you what is right and wrong and being truly saved you have strong convictions to do what is right and avoid what is wrong. If your not saved, your not going to have any reason to follow any rules or feel bad for certain sins that a christian would.
Your not getting it I don't know I'm saved therefore I don't care in fact maybe I've never heard of the bible the holy spirt while very good at convicting people isn't that good, humans are too drawn to sin.
then do you believe that you can lose your salvation?
Yes I do, however I believe you can also regain it the only way you can actually LOSE your salvation is to die and not have received it.
Please address my previous pots.
Please address 1 John 2:19, Those that went out from us were never truly with us. You cannot lose your salvation, but you can stray away from God, but He will always correct you and bring you back, like a sheperd, if you are truly His. Thus He is called, The Good Sheperd.
Those that went out from us were never truly with us. You cannot lose your salvation, but you can stray away from God, but He will always correct you and bring you back, like a sheperd, if you are truly His. Thus He is called, The Good Sheperd.
I should have been more specific everyone has salvation thus everyone loses is when they sin for the first time, also I feel like that means they were never in the word or never really did anything "Christian."
Again address my previous posts or I'll be forced to conclude your admitting defeat and I'll stop posting.
He so loved the world, the whole world? If you take this to be literal and the 'whole world' you say that God is not strong enough to carry out what He wants, on the other hand with the free will, Ephiesians 2:1&5 also Col. 2:13 all point out that we are DEAD in our sin, being spiritually dead is like being physically dead in the fact that we have absolutely no power over changing our state of being while dead. If God didn't do something to give us life, which we are dead so we can't choose on our own, we'd be screwed? Your dead in the water can you latch onto a life line to be saved? If you are DEAD what can YOU yourself do? Nothing? you see what I'm getting at?
So my question is if we are born alive (spiritually) why did Jesus have to die? We are holy and we have not sinned so there was no point to Christ's death? Jesus had to die because we were spiritually dead from the second we were concieved. This is why Jesus had to die, see what I mean?
Jesus had to die because we were spiritually dead from the second we were concieved.
But if Jesus died and not everyone is pre-destined to go to Heaven, what's the point of Calvanism?
Last I checked, Jesus died for EVERYONE'S sins, not just those whom God ordained to be worthy to enter heaven or whatever the deal is.
He so loved the world, the whole world? If you take this to be literal and the 'whole world' you say that God is not strong enough to carry out what He wants
He wants the entire world to go to heaven why else would he create a pure world, he would just create a world full of chaos and he would have created hell for more than just Lucifer.
So my question is if we are born alive (spiritually) why did Jesus have to die? We are holy and we have not sinned so there was no point to Christ's death? Jesus had to die because we were spiritually dead from the second we were concieved. This is why Jesus had to die, see what I mean?
Because we all sin, were born alive spiritualy yet we die when we first sin. The rest Zoot just said.
If He died for EVERYONE's sins but He doesn't save EVERYONE He is one giant failure isn't He zoo? And Hell is not created for Lucifer but for all the fallen angels and those that do not believe in Christ, the Devil does not rule over hell, infact he and his demons are terrified of it. Seeing as you die spiritually when you first sin and being selfish is a sin, you die pretty damn fast when your a baby? And ontop of that if sin isn't handed down by the genes how could we be corrupted by it without just choosing to when we are old enough to know the difference and choose one way or another?
I do not base all my beliefs by the bible since christ himself did not wright it and humans are failable.
MrMonkey3, one cannot be Christian and not believe in the Bible or base their lives on the Bible's teachings for God is the one who inspired the writing of the Bible through men. It is both inspired by God *and* written by men. So you can't say that it's fallible because saying so will be saying that God is fallible (which He isn't). And though Jesus did not personally write the Bible Himself, He still followed the words of the Bible (the OT at that time). He quoted it, used it and practised it in all of His being.
If you want to talk to me about this more, do visit my profile and we can have a chat there on the messenger.
I am an Arminianist, which is not as different from Calvinism as many may think. We do accept, for example, the concept of total depravity. However, we differ in a few areas concerning predestination:
1. Grace was extended to all human beings and not just to the elect, therefore humans may have different levels of receptivity to the Holy Spirit. This does not mean humans effect their own salvation though.
2. God can still foresee the elect, but he foresees the elect's faith in him, not their absolute salvation. This is known as conditional election.
3. Salvation is secured once the decision is made to follow Christ, but it can be lost through apostasy (i.e. loss of faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit). Of course, it may be said that those who do so were not truly saved in the first place.
Of course, it may be said that those who do so were not truly saved in the first place.
I would have to agree with this. I don't think that people who fall away were really saved to begin with because I do believe that God sustains His people in the faith so that we do not fall away. Imagine us walking on a tight rope and on either side of us are chasms. We *know* that if we walk that tight rope and we lean to either side we'll fall. However, throughout the walk, God tells us "Don't lean on your left... Don't lean on your right... If you do so, you'll fall... Now walk straight ahead... Concentrate on your balance... Don't lean..." So therefore, in that way, we will NOT lose our salvation because God will sustain us.
As for election... It's quite simple really. God is omniscient and not dictated by the rules of time and space like we do. We have the concept of time because we are humans and we need that to keep our lives in order but God doesn't. Humans are BOTH predestined AND they also have a responsibility to choose their path. So why is it that they are predestined then? How is this fair? Imagine this... You are a person who is able to manipulate time and move back and forth through time. You travel to the future to a dinner party and you're there watching the guests. You then counted that there will be 10 people who are wearing red shirts on the day of the party. You then travel back to the present and then wait for the day of the party. You see, you already *know* that there will be 10 people wearing red at that party and you *know* who those people will be. However, did you ever had any hand in choosing their clothes for them that they'd wear red? No, because all you did was be at the party in the future and observed the people. You saw and therefore knew that there would be 10 people in red. The people who wore red still had to choose to wear the clothes for the party without your meddling. In the same way, God *knows* who will be saved and who won't because He is outside space and time and therefore *knows* what everything will be like and how it will happen etc. However, at the same time knowing doesn't mean choosing for us. We *still* had to choose Jesus on our own accord even though God already knew who will and who won't choose Jesus. So this way, it doesn't negate the fact that both Calvinism and Arminianism are true at the same time.
Hence this is the reason why I will choose neither side because both have their strengths and flaws though I will lean over more to the Calvinists' side as I strongly believe in the glory of God over man's strength. Perhaps I've just been exposed to a corrupted version of Arminianism that puts too much emphasis on man's choice and man's free will because when I read what Parsat wrote, I can't say that I disagree with him on the things he said. His seem to be a better version of Arminianism... I dunno...
I believe that more than just saying 'dont lean' we stray more and lose our focus inspite of what He says and we do fall, but He catches us and sets us back on the rope, because we are His, and He loves us and He tells us that none can pluck us from His hand, once our name is written in the book of life, in other words once we are saved, we are secured by God and we are on a course to heaven. BUT we cannot just do what ever we want, He puts a will in us to follow His laws and commands and He causes us to grow and become more like Him.
Noj, I do agree with that as well. That's why I don't think that we will lose our salvation. It's something of a struggle for my husband as he is afraid of that and he believes that he is such a bad person that God will forsake him. However, I try to reassure him that God is there for us and He will sustain us even though we are sinful. Of course, like you said, we can't just do whatever we want because as Christians we *should* want to be more like Christ not be more like our own selves... I am quite thankful that God causes us to grow in Him and He also sustains us. If it were up to us alone... Sigh...
Noj: Not a better version of Arminianism. Simply one that seeks to explain it in more simple terms. I don't believe that in this life we'll ever figure out what really happens, but as long as we are dogmatic about the things that really matter--the resurrection, the Holy Spirit--we should be in good shape.
jlel: I want you to give this quote by Gary Parker to your husband.
If faith never encounters doubt, if truth never struggles with error, if good never battles with evil, how can faith know its own power? In my own pilgrimage, if I have to choose between a faith that has stared doubt in the eye and made it blink, or a naive faith that has never known the firing line of doubt, I will choose the former every time.
As Christians, the world will try to make us doubt what we're here for. But if we overcome this, we will emerge stronger than we have before. To me, a bit of doubt proves all the more how we need Christ, and as long as we're human we will need some to prevent our faith from becoming blind faith.
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