As some of you may know, I am a Catholic who has considered, on numerous occasions, the possibility that my religion may be incorrect, and maybe there is no correct religion. In most cases, I will cease debate and turn into discussion mode while I seek some answers. In most cases, personal experience wins me over, and what may appear to be coincidence on the outside appears to me as God showing me he exists. I've looked at every single one of them, and while they seem like improbable and personally moving coincidences, how improbable and moving was the formation of our universe? I've never been a Christian who believed that only through a believer's eyes could the world be beautiful; but now I finally can see the beauty of the world through more atheistic eyes. Like the stereotypical Christian, I am very conservative and reflective, and I will probably continue to be that way no matter what I choose to believe. But I am very concerned with the content of my own Bible. I'm not stupid; I've always known there were mentions of slavery as an everyday thing and women as inferior, but I've always been able to rationalize that the Bible was not written by God. Men wrote it, inspired by God, and the events, not the in-between pre-industrial male attitude, were what I needed to listen to. But even now I wonder why the Old Testament is so foul and cruel, and why even parts of the New Testament are so sexist. Even if Jesus hadn't died for our sins, wouldn't God want to create the world that he hopes to see one day, not smite the world until his son was born?
In this thread, I seek for Christians to justify the Bible. I don't have quotes on hand, but those of you who have read the Bible should know which ones I speak of. I will pop in once in a while with a quote I have a question about. In this thread, I will debate as an Atheist. In any other thread, for the time being, I will debate as a Christian. The reason I made this thread is simple: when I debate with atheists, I get a one-sided view to take in. But if I debate with Christians, I can get an actual balance. I am not ashamed to admit that my faith falters. It won't change my character whether I am right or wrong about religion. But when this much doubt surrounds my mind, I am simply curious.
I am a child, so I am not making any official decisions until adulthood. I want to take in the possibilities for the next few years, officially, and debate with Christians to see if I can win. Anyone is welcome in this thread, but it is mainly for Christians to defend the Bible, not a Christianity vs Atheism thread. I know there are threads on the Bible, but I want to use specific Bible quotes, rather than generalize the entire thing.
Let's ignore the fact that slavery is immoral for one moment. The law implies that intent is completely irrelevant; that his death is a sin, but if you do an act which could but doesn't kill him, it's okay. Why are there so many laws in the Old Testament that ignore morality and common sense? Why would God's "chosen people" be so brutaly below a non-believer in modern times?
We can't morally or customarily hold against an old culture what was the norm - perspective of right and wrong changes over the years and over the different civilizations. You get what I'm saying here? People in the future may look back at things like McDonald's and consider us lawless and outlandish; but that doesn't mean that it was at the time. The Old Testament was written 3,000 years ago, and things were different back then so we shouldn't count it against them. You get what I'm saying? Everybody had slaves.
If I remember right, the probability of a protein molecule being created from the Big Bang is 10^243, and anything over 10^40 is impossible. I can't find the physicist who came up with those numbers, but I'll post it when I find it.
Deuteronomy and Exodus are both parts of the Law, and could be often harsh. "Ignore the Law" is not entirely correct. We as Christians are no longer bound by the Law. (NASB translation)
Romans 8 3-4
For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Christ was the fulfillment of the Law, and in Christ, we are not bound by it. Our justification is by faith. Stoning a false prophet is indeed extreme by today's standards. There is something that we should do, however, and thankfully it does not involve murder.
II Corinthians 13-15
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguised himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.
These men are the false prophet / dreamer, leading men astray from the Lord.
I Corinthians 5:13
But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.
Don't kill him. Just remove him. Do not allow him to lead you away from God. Love him and try to bring him back to God. Otherwise, he is outside the church and God will judge him.
If I remember right, the probability of a protein molecule being created from the Big Bang is 10^243, and anything over 10^40 is impossible. I can't find the physicist who came up with those numbers, but I'll post it when I find it.
Sorry, but it isn't theorized that a protein particle was created in the Big Bang. You're off there. It's theorized that chemicals reacted and produced amino acids, which then continued to react and from life.
Also, wouldn't it just be infinitely improbable? ;P
I don't know why, but your username made me chuckle :P
Sorry for the off-topicness; I went to bed after my last post, so I didn't get a chance to read your responses. I appreciate everyone taking the time to make them, though.
Question 1: The death of one person was peferable to the spread of idols and false gods amongst an entire population. It also served as a warning to others. Would you rather one person dead and lost for eternity or ten people alive and lost for eternity?
Here comes the problem in modern-day morality. Do we kill one non-believer before he converts nine others to his belief? Do we have the right to determine this person's worth and point of death? Why isn't the law to try to SWAY them back first?
Because the only way to moralaty was the hard way, and not laws which aren't explained. So in a sence he did steer them.
Why couldn't God make another commandment, prohibiting the personal practice of slavery? Furthermore, why did God have to stoop to their level and act as if there was nothing wrong with slavery?
We can't morally or customarily hold against an old culture what was the norm - perspective of right and wrong changes over the years and over the different civilizations. You get what I'm saying here? People in the future may look back at things like McDonald's and consider us lawless and outlandish; but that doesn't mean that it was at the time. The Old Testament was written 3,000 years ago, and things were different back then so we shouldn't count it against them. You get what I'm saying? Everybody had slaves.
This is a good perspective. Still, it leaves me wondering if the "Christian God" is evolving with his morality as people are, or if he has a sole perspective which he refuses to share with us. Neither one is very satisfactory.
Thanks for the effort, guys. I'll come back in an hour to re-respond and post a new Bible quote. Thanks for your posts guys.
Oh, you mean you just follow Catholic laws, but without believing in God? That sounds a bit confusing, but that makes sense. I'm still a Christian, but I'm just fully admitting that I, too, have some doubts.
