As some of you may know, I am a Catholic who has considered, on numerous occasions, the possibility that my religion may be incorrect, and maybe there is no correct religion. In most cases, I will cease debate and turn into discussion mode while I seek some answers. In most cases, personal experience wins me over, and what may appear to be coincidence on the outside appears to me as God showing me he exists. I've looked at every single one of them, and while they seem like improbable and personally moving coincidences, how improbable and moving was the formation of our universe? I've never been a Christian who believed that only through a believer's eyes could the world be beautiful; but now I finally can see the beauty of the world through more atheistic eyes. Like the stereotypical Christian, I am very conservative and reflective, and I will probably continue to be that way no matter what I choose to believe. But I am very concerned with the content of my own Bible. I'm not stupid; I've always known there were mentions of slavery as an everyday thing and women as inferior, but I've always been able to rationalize that the Bible was not written by God. Men wrote it, inspired by God, and the events, not the in-between pre-industrial male attitude, were what I needed to listen to. But even now I wonder why the Old Testament is so foul and cruel, and why even parts of the New Testament are so sexist. Even if Jesus hadn't died for our sins, wouldn't God want to create the world that he hopes to see one day, not smite the world until his son was born?
In this thread, I seek for Christians to justify the Bible. I don't have quotes on hand, but those of you who have read the Bible should know which ones I speak of. I will pop in once in a while with a quote I have a question about. In this thread, I will debate as an Atheist. In any other thread, for the time being, I will debate as a Christian. The reason I made this thread is simple: when I debate with atheists, I get a one-sided view to take in. But if I debate with Christians, I can get an actual balance. I am not ashamed to admit that my faith falters. It won't change my character whether I am right or wrong about religion. But when this much doubt surrounds my mind, I am simply curious.
I am a child, so I am not making any official decisions until adulthood. I want to take in the possibilities for the next few years, officially, and debate with Christians to see if I can win. Anyone is welcome in this thread, but it is mainly for Christians to defend the Bible, not a Christianity vs Atheism thread. I know there are threads on the Bible, but I want to use specific Bible quotes, rather than generalize the entire thing.
[quote]I would like to think that God would at least acknowledge that a human being is different than property; instead, he refered to a slave as property.
Maybe he didn't. Maybe this is just the way it was understood. If I say "I'm a good driver" it can be interpreted many ways. Do I never get mad? No speeding tickets? No parking tickets? Do I go not go through red lights? Just because it was written that way does not mean that was the way it was meant to be.
I though his would e more valuable here then in the original thread. FireFly I think you gave some good answers to some of the stuff.
Excepting the original Hebrew, none of the bible is 100% true. Phrases shift over the years, across multiple translations. I hate to beat a dead horse here, but in one of the passages regarding homosexual behaviour, for instance (Romans, I think, since I do know it was written by Paul), the phrase, which in Greek, breaks down into ''Man beds'', as best we can figure is translated into a decrying of homosexuality in general.
This doesn't really solve the issue of the question at hand. You know some of it's false and the best you can do is guess work to work out what's what.
Because of the innacuracy of the bible, there is meaning where you choose to find it. The bible has changed so much over the years and the original context can be difficult to determine without the right frame of mind (ie. 1st and 2nd century AD), that the best thing anyone can tell you about the meaning of the bible is more or less their interpretation on what it is saying.
This again doesn't really answer the question at hand. If we can make it mean pretty much what ever we want it to mean then what true value can it hold?
If this is how the Bible works then I could take pretty much any text and come up with morals and guides to live by.
Well God is and always was moral. The fact is times change, and back in the day having slaves was the normal way of life. Its exactly like us having t.v's now a days. Slaves were considered as objects, and God had to make rules that would be sufficient for the laws at the time. To say all of a sudden that having a slave was a sin back in the day, it would be exactly like God saying electricity was a sin in our time. It would cause complete chaos, and everyone would turn away from God with doubts and disbeleif.
How do you tell what parts of the Bible you should listen to and what parts are dated and irrelevant for today?
This sounds to me like an argument to just cherry pick the Bible.
Even more so if there is in fact a God he would have known what was making it's way into the holy text his chosen people would follow fro generations to come. So with this sort of knowledge does it really make sense to put things in that only apply for the time it was written rather then for all times? This goes for the argument on the way women are treated in the Bible as well. Thinking bout it this covers a lot of whats in the Bible.
The key words in these verses are "as the law says." This is the law of the land, not of God. My Bible clearly does not capitalize the word "law." And even though God commands us to follow the law of wherever we live, it is not because he thinks all laws are right, but because we should respect authority under any circumstances, even if it is wrong.
If it was the law of the land to beat or even cripple someone should we respect such authority?
Now let me ask are men and women equal..Nope! I'm sexist you say well no, let me give you an example would you feel more comfortable with a male or female caretaker for your young child? How about a male or female president. Both jobs are extremely important, but some are tailored specially for men or women just based on the way we think, and what we care about. So should a women be a pastor, well no, but should they be in charge of mentoring programs or childcare yes! That's the beauty of it we each have a special job.
Male or female caretaker for young child? If the guy is more qualified and get's long better with the small child I would go hire the male. Male or female president? Again if the female is better suited in ideas and qualifications then I would vote for her over a male.
Are males and females different, yes. There are physical differences in the brain and body. But the question is better asked are males superior to females because of these differences?
define wise. Women tend not to be wise and kind to your money.
You should meet my girlfriend she's better with money then I am.
I would prefer to have Big P reflect on this stuff more then I would want a reply to be honest.
Maybe he didn't. Maybe this is just the way it was understood. If I say "I'm a good driver" it can be interpreted many ways. Do I never get mad? No speeding tickets? No parking tickets? Do I go not go through red lights? Just because it was written that way does not mean that was the way it was meant to be.
I understand; but in its context, the slave's pain didn't matter as long as it didn't die because it was property. I don't like the idea of either part of that sentence being approved, even if the other part was inferred.
women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
Again this is going back to the routes of christianity. Man was made first, and God sought fit that man should rule the earth. Yes it is kind of a sexist religion, but again back in the day Men were the strong people. They were the ones that fought the wars, defended their town, and were the people that brought home all the food and such. They were the people that were the most important in society and therefore higher up than the females. This is why only men could be priests because it was understood that they new the hardships of being a man, and therefore understand how to speak to the church (full of males). Females didn't know what it was like, and therefore were meant to be quiet in Church. Sure they were their to pray, but being quiet was not only for respect, but also because they wouldn't know what they were talking about half the time. Yes this sounds very sexist but at the time(again) God had to use his own laws in the correct time periods otherwise it would be pointless. Giving laws to the church that men were more important than women during a time when it was true, helped show that God was right. And now as you can see, women are becoming more accepted in the church based on the fact that they are becoming more and more important in todays society. They too understand the demands society brings to the table; and therefore are able to talk in front of the church about life. Yes this is the new testement and I understand this, but new or old, this is still quite far back in time; and was during the time where men were still considered the bringers of bacon to thou own home....
And im happy that my first comment helped clear that quote up for yea =)
How do you tell what parts of the Bible you should listen to and what parts are dated and irrelevant for today?
For a brief moment, I will be Christian again (usually I argue as an atheist in this thread, for those of you just tuning in). I think the context is extremely important here. You have to understand the events themselves, and then mentally recreate them and look at them from an omnipresent view.
If it was the law of the land to beat or even cripple someone should we respect such authority?
I thought of that too, actually. But I think it goes without saying that you walk into a room with respect for fellow human beings. When they start crippling you, then you lose respect. Possibly the writers of the passage assumed that women would never be respected by the law, and that it was pointless to try. It wasn't that crazy of a thing to assume, from their perspective.
Okay Big P nice replies. I'm not going to reply to what you said since that might derail this, but I would suggest for you to look at your own words as an atheist as if they came from someone else.
You have to understand the events themselves, and then mentally recreate them and look at them from an omnipresent view.
Funny how everyone in the Bible gives the explanation behind God's actions but their word can't be trusted as more than prejudice. Everything in the Bible is circumstantial. Does this mean that nothing in the Bible can mean anything, since uneducated people wrote it?
Possibly the writers of the passage assumed that women would never be respected by the law, and that it was pointless to try. It wasn't that crazy of a thing to assume, from their perspective.
I remember the Bible saying something like, "Nothing is impossible with God." Guess the rights of women are worth nothing, huh?
Ha-ha, that was fun! I could carry a debate all by myself. Maybe I'll stop the tally for now; I'm a little bit satisfied that there are answers to these questions, but I still have many more, and more each day. I expect this to be a frequently updated thread.
So should all of our posts be one and two line dribble just because you don't feel like reading it? We shoud censor what we want to say because it takes you time? If you don't want to read it why you don't have to. I think that to fully express oneself you need to be able to say as much as you like. Complaining about thoroughness is a mistake.
I reckon you should read a book called the Holographic Universe, Iv mentioned it somewhere in the forums before but I really recomend it to anyone who wants to do some serious thinking about how real our reality is.
At what level do we seperate the man made fiction from the very (or just as) real possibillity of there being some kind of higher power. I find it unlikely there is a "GOD" in the religious term. But theres gotta be something out there right. As much as I am constantly astounded by the human races creativity, I cannot just discount these stories completly. You only get out what you put in, and everything is a regurgitation of what we know. This cannot just be the ramblings of insane men or the plans of the wealthy and powerfull. All these stories lead back to a common theme, returning to the "one", the one being that lost part inside that everybody craves. I dunno, I think Sigmund Froid said something about returning to the womb.
And as for Pa11Wa11... if your gonna join in the forums then join in, or just go and play games.
I find it unlikely there is a "GOD" in the religious term. But theres gotta be something out there right. As much as I am constantly astounded by the human races creativity, I cannot just discount these stories completly. You only get out what you put in, and everything is a regurgitation of what we know. This cannot just be the ramblings of insane men or the plans of the wealthy and powerfull. All these stories lead back to a common theme, returning to the "one", the one being that lost part inside that everybody craves. I dunno, I think Sigmund Froid said something about returning to the womb.
Why does there have to be something out there? I don't think the people who wrote the stories were necessarily insane, however the people who put together today's most commonly accepted version of the Bible were most definitely rich and powerful.
... but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, ...
What happened to "though shall not kill"? This is the problem I have with the bible, it is quite contradictory. I don't understand why any religion would use a book of many contradictions as their holy book. BTW - I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools for 12 years. I know the bible, and because of this, I no longer believe in any religion nor do I believe in "God". There is no explanation to be given since the bible is logically incompatible. How can one explain an illogical ideology? If "God" has infinite wisdom, he would not be a jealous God, nor would he be a vengeful God, nor would he be a zealous God unto himself.
There doesnt. But considering we are here I personally reckon there IS something out there. In fact the chances of there NOT being something out there are pretty slim. I guess the main question is... are we or they in a position to have contact. But this is pure speculation.
Mainly I feel the human race is missing something. I just read in the metro paper a couple o weeks ago about a dude who had a stroke, forgot how to speak German, but gained 20/20 vision. Thats some serious internal rewiring going on there. The Holographic universe speaks more on this kind of thing as well.
Maybe the thing thats out there isnt even on this plane of reality. All very thought provoking but I do take all views, including my own, with a pinch of salt... and a side of chips...
