As some of you may know, I am a Catholic who has considered, on numerous occasions, the possibility that my religion may be incorrect, and maybe there is no correct religion. In most cases, I will cease debate and turn into discussion mode while I seek some answers. In most cases, personal experience wins me over, and what may appear to be coincidence on the outside appears to me as God showing me he exists. I've looked at every single one of them, and while they seem like improbable and personally moving coincidences, how improbable and moving was the formation of our universe? I've never been a Christian who believed that only through a believer's eyes could the world be beautiful; but now I finally can see the beauty of the world through more atheistic eyes. Like the stereotypical Christian, I am very conservative and reflective, and I will probably continue to be that way no matter what I choose to believe. But I am very concerned with the content of my own Bible. I'm not stupid; I've always known there were mentions of slavery as an everyday thing and women as inferior, but I've always been able to rationalize that the Bible was not written by God. Men wrote it, inspired by God, and the events, not the in-between pre-industrial male attitude, were what I needed to listen to. But even now I wonder why the Old Testament is so foul and cruel, and why even parts of the New Testament are so sexist. Even if Jesus hadn't died for our sins, wouldn't God want to create the world that he hopes to see one day, not smite the world until his son was born?
In this thread, I seek for Christians to justify the Bible. I don't have quotes on hand, but those of you who have read the Bible should know which ones I speak of. I will pop in once in a while with a quote I have a question about. In this thread, I will debate as an Atheist. In any other thread, for the time being, I will debate as a Christian. The reason I made this thread is simple: when I debate with atheists, I get a one-sided view to take in. But if I debate with Christians, I can get an actual balance. I am not ashamed to admit that my faith falters. It won't change my character whether I am right or wrong about religion. But when this much doubt surrounds my mind, I am simply curious.
I am a child, so I am not making any official decisions until adulthood. I want to take in the possibilities for the next few years, officially, and debate with Christians to see if I can win. Anyone is welcome in this thread, but it is mainly for Christians to defend the Bible, not a Christianity vs Atheism thread. I know there are threads on the Bible, but I want to use specific Bible quotes, rather than generalize the entire thing.
First off great thread, I know where you are and can say I've been there A LOT. I believe in the trinity but also believe that the New Testament should hold a higher position in the minds of Christians. The Old Testament was in fact written by men so they could have plagiarized, if you would, the word of God. The only teaching I know for sure came from him are the words of his son Jesus. Everyone doubts, and it usually always follows a period of huge faith and serving, he leaves us on are own to see if we can still do it without his presence its like the dry period after the rain BUT before the flood. Not many people make it through stronger and most people tend to regress back into the previous stage because of the ease.
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.
Well like I said this probably was written by man without God's um approval. If God does believe this he does for a reason, I mean why would he even make us, I think that's the bigger question here.
Too long, lost my interest after the first like 3 words... Christianity is something to talk over with a priest
Ew, this brings up a good point, maybe you should check out a Protestant church. I've studied the Catholic church a bit and find its views..not my type to say it nicely. I'm sure you have a friend that doesn't go to a Catholic church hitch a ride with him next Sunday.
Thanks, everyone, for being so kind with this. I know if I told some of the people around me that my faith was wavering they'd freak out.
Well like I said this probably was written by man without God's um approval. If God does believe this he does for a reason, I mean why would he even make us, I think that's the bigger question here.
I have considered, at times, that maybe God has a greater morality than we can ever know. The only thing is, I also believe that morality must be tested and physically interacted with in this world. I like your answer, but there's still something about that passage that strikes me as odd...
Ew, this brings up a good point, maybe you should check out a Protestant church.
I would like to add don't just stop there check out as many churches as you can. Question them in the same way as you are with your own.
Well like I said this probably was written by man without God's um approval. If God does believe this he does for a reason, I mean why would he even make us, I think that's the bigger question here.
I really hope I don't derail this by asking, and I'm kinda having a similar argument going on in another thread. Would it be correct to say at least most Christians regard the Bible as the inerrant word of god? If so then how can such things exist in the holy texts? Even if we were to say that at one point it was, why would God let his message get so distorted? If the Bible is a distorted version of gods inerrant word then why follow it?
I would like to add don't just stop there check out as many churches as you can. Question them in the same way as you are with your own.
I agree completely, just don't "church shop" because you disagree with one little point the church believes in, find a church with good people, and leaders.
I really hope I don't derail this by asking, and I'm kinda having a similar argument going on in another thread. Would it be correct to say at least most Christians regard the Bible as the inerrant word of god? If so then how can such things exist in the holy texts? Even if we were to say that at one point it was, why would God let his message get so distorted? If the Bible is a distorted version of gods inerrant word then why follow it?
To be entirely honest I do view the New Testament above the Old Testament. Now this isn't biblical and only supported by the belief that the New Testament is for sure God's word. That is if Jesus was God, which I do believe. The holy texts were compiled by God but by the Roman Empire, most likely they brought some things in to support what they believed. However Christians SHOULD take the whole bible as one whole, the only different is one part is a direct source and one is an indirect source. Jesus came not to destroy the law but fulfill it, he came to explain to us what it meant.
Why couldn't God make another commandment, prohibiting the personal practice of slavery? Furthermore, why did God have to stoop to their level and act as if there was nothing wrong with slavery?
By saying this you assume that slavery is in fact wrong. It may not be pretty, but can you truly say it is evil? It isn't like all slaves were treated with creulty and whips. There isn't a whole lot of difference between slavery and indentured servants is there? Slaves could save enough money to buy their own freedom. Also, every 50 years the Jewish slaves were set free. Most people don't remember that little fact.
This is a good perspective. Still, it leaves me wondering if the "Christian God" is evolving with his morality as people are, or if he has a sole perspective which he refuses to share with us. Neither one is very satisfactory.
I has an answer:
If Christianity is true, then the Christian God is infinitely intelligent. He would know that morals are subjective. Christian morals couldn't be contradicted then because Christian morals didn't exist then - morals are subjective, so why infringe on free will and force the morals of humanity to mirror his?
This is an answer I gave in another thread to a similar question, although I hope it answers your query:
Why are there so many laws in the Old Testament that ignore morality and common sense? Why would God's "chosen people" be so brutaly below a non-believer in modern times?
(The italic parts are direct copy/paste from my post in the thread MageGrayWolf is referring to)
With regards to seemingly brutal nature of the OT, as people have already mentioned it's contextual:
A Testament is a covenant. The New Testament was the new covenant meant to revise the Old Testament, because it was old, and customs, laws and traditions had since changed.
With regards to the massive difference in attitude of the OT and NT God:
I'm not talking about two different Gods. The behaviour of God in the OT and NT change dramatically. The bible does describe them differently, however that doesn't mean they are separate entities, just that the authors of the NT addressed the change.
With regards to the argument stating that the bible must be 100% coherent for it to be justifiably believed in:
Excepting the original Hebrew, none of the bible is 100% true. Phrases shift over the years, across multiple translations. I hate to beat a dead horse here, but in one of the passages regarding homosexual behaviour, for instance (Romans, I think, since I do know it was written by Paul), the phrase, which in Greek, breaks down into ''Man beds'', as best we can figure is translated into a decrying of homosexuality in general.
However the alternate view could be taken that it was decrying male prostitution, or something completely different. The point being, we really don't know what it means, and so we guessed.
I'd just like to flesh out this point a little bit. The implications of this are that it would be a fallacy to claim that the bible is the word of God. If we assume this to be true, then all criticisms and contradictions within the bible must be taken with this in mind.
Bg P In case your interested in what prompted these replies FireFly post you can check them out in the "Even God Was Scared Of Low Blows" thread. I think I will hold off for your reply before getting back to those replies myself.
Sorry; studying for the PSAT today, so I won't be on much. I appreciate the responses guys.
By saying this you assume that slavery is in fact wrong. It may not be pretty, but can you truly say it is evil? It isn't like all slaves were treated with creulty and whips. There isn't a whole lot of difference between slavery and indentured servants is there? Slaves could save enough money to buy their own freedom. Also, every 50 years the Jewish slaves were set free. Most people don't remember that little fact.
I understand what you're saying, but don't forget, the effect of slavery was discrimination against people because of skin color, not just enslaving. I would like to think that God would at least acknowledge that a human being is different than property; instead, he refered to a slave as property. Nobody can help how they enter the world, and any god worthy of my respect should believe that.
If Christianity is true, then the Christian God is infinitely intelligent. He would know that morals are subjective. Christian morals couldn't be contradicted then because Christian morals didn't exist then - morals are subjective, so why infringe on free will and force the morals of humanity to mirror his?
This is an argument I used to use, actually. The only flaw is that God gave us ten commandments, which forced us to mirror some of his morals. And funnily enough, these morals are the same as any other religion; love the god(s) you pray to, love your neighbor as yourself. If he was going to make his followers worship him and treat white males with respect, couldn't he have thrown in that slavery thing on the side?
A Testament is a covenant. The New Testament was the new covenant meant to revise the Old Testament, because it was old, and customs, laws and traditions had since changed.
Has God changed then? Or were his old laws tests that no human being at that time had the wisdom to see through?
I'm not talking about two different Gods. The behaviour of God in the OT and NT change dramatically. The bible does describe them differently, however that doesn't mean they are separate entities, just that the authors of the NT addressed the change.
If his wisdom is infinite, shouldn't he have known how to behave originally?
Excepting the original Hebrew, none of the bible is 100% true. Phrases shift over the years, across multiple translations. I hate to beat a dead horse here, but in one of the passages regarding homosexual behaviour, for instance (Romans, I think, since I do know it was written by Paul), the phrase, which in Greek, breaks down into ''Man beds'', as best we can figure is translated into a decrying of homosexuality in general. However the alternate view could be taken that it was decrying male prostitution, or something completely different. The point being, we really don't know what it means, and so we guessed.
This is a good one. I'll have to try and trace back some of these quotes I have problems with. My only retort is that these behaviors, like slavery and sexism, were still well-practiced even by these Jews and Christians; so at the very least, God failed to address that all human beings are created equal.
This is an argument I used to use, actually. The only flaw is that God gave us ten commandments, which forced us to mirror some of his morals. And funnily enough, these morals are the same as any other religion; love the god(s) you pray to, love your neighbor as yourself.
The 10 Commandments don't apply to the OT, because the TC were after the OT was written, I'm pretty sure.
Moses, from the Old Testament, freed the slaves from Israel, then hiked a mountain and God told him to write them down on tablets. Either way, God should've included slavery in them. Maybe morals are subjective, but when the subject is one all-perfect entity, there shouldn't be a change in morals; this would indicate he either was or is imperfect.
