ForumsWEPRWas Jesus Real

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MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

This is a subject that has cropped up in a couple threads already so I figure why not give it it's own thread.

So the questions
Was the Biblical Jesus a real person?
If not was there at least a historical Jesus used as a basis for the stories?
Could it have been a complete fabrication?

Please provide evidence for or against your argument. If you use the Bible provide external sources to also back up your claim.

  • 231 Replies
deserteagle
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deserteagle
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Nomad

. that two planets in our solar system aligned so as to create one bright star


faceplam

planets and stars are VERY different. planet+planet DOES NOT = bright star. They also give off different light
yielee
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yielee
618 posts
Shepherd

planets and stars are VERY different. planet+planet DOES NOT = bright star. They also give off different light


From CHINA:

In the book called the âCh'ien-han-shuâ, we find the following reference:

âIn the second year of the period of Ch'ien-p'ing, second month, a hui-hsing appeared in Ch'ien-niu for more than 70 daysâ

The second year of the reign of Ch'ien-p'ing meant the year 5 BC and the second month, in the Chinese calendar, implied the month that ran from March 10th to April 7th. A hui-hsing is a broom star and Ch'ien-niu is the Chinese constellation that included Alpha and Beta Capricornii. Thus the complete translation should read:

âDuring the interval between March 10th April 7th of 5 BC, a comet appeared close Alpha and Beta Capricornii and was visible for more than 70 daysâ

Curiously, the chronicle appears to state that the object remained fixed in the same place in the sky for more than two months, which is rather unexpected if it were a comet.

http://www.astrosurf.com/comets/Star_of_Bethlehem/English/Chinese.htm
yielee
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yielee
618 posts
Shepherd

Ugh.��Those things are sooooo strange, why can't they just go away?

DDX
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DDX
3,562 posts
Nomad

really he is real, if you believe it. People can't tell you what to think, and they shouldn't in that matter.

TSL3_needed
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TSL3_needed
5,579 posts
Nomad

Yup, he was real. He probably had a following. And he was crucified. Like thousands upon thousands more.

Why we worship a dead guy who was never special is beyond me -.-

yielee
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yielee
618 posts
Shepherd

Pssst! Watch the VIDEO!
VIDEO - WAS JESUS REAL?

Fri 9pm Sat 12am and Sat 7pm.
National Geographic Channel

German3945
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German3945
996 posts
Nomad

That video said that Jesus wasn't the first to take his life for a religion in a "resurrection" type of way.

It also explained that Jesus was crucified because he didn't like the way the church tried to profit off of pilgrims, so he disrupted the scene of things being sold on church grounds.

They also said that he may have very well known that he would have died and may have done it for his religion.

If any of this is true, I don't see how it makes him any different from a suicide bomber. He took his own life in an attempt to save his religion-- sound familiar?

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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I have posted the Jesus time line links before. These are some interesting YouTube videos touching on the subject. While this still

Oh no, those guys were/are just angry kooks. It's like their wanting to be famous instead of genuine scholars so they fall overboard with there conspiracy opinions just to try to kill Jesus all over again.


I'm not sure if that's entirely fair to say, some of the points that make do sound valid.

really he is real, if you believe it. People can't tell you what to think, and they shouldn't in that matter.


Believing something to be true doesn't make it true.

While these wouldn't necessarily rule out the possibility of a historical Jesus who was just some normal guy with maybe a few good and possibly controversial ideas. It does pretty well take out the possibility of the Biblical Jesus as told in the Bible.

This compares actual History with the way history is told in the Bible.
Skeptic Bible Study: The Jesus Timeline
Skeptic Bible Study: The Jesus Timeline Part II
The Jesus Timeline Part III

This refutes that Jesus was never real. I like this video because in the side bar it also lists a good number of sources for the information contained in the video.
Christianity Exposed (Part III: The Jesus Myth)

Here we have an atheist who thinks Jesus was a historical figure and gives his view of what he thinks of this historical Jesus.
Did Jesus Exist?

Something else to consider how quickly a completely fictional messiah in this case one known as John Frum can arise. We have a complete historical record of how this belief developed. It's possible Jesus developed in a similar manner.
Origin of Faith - John Frum vs Jesus 1/2
Origin of Faith - John Frum vs Jesus 2/2
AnaLoGMunKy
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AnaLoGMunKy
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Blacksmith

Could people PLEEEEESE stop coming in and just saying he IS real... this doesnt mean a darn thing.

Show me some concrete historical evidence that jesus was a real person.
All the stuff that has been pro jesusisreal is down to word of mouth and BELIEF.

I dont believe he was even a real person, I could be wrong, but I truly BELIEVE he was not real.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

Could people PLEEEEESE stop coming in and just saying he IS real... this doesnt mean a darn thing.


Very true, I expected at least a few responses of such a nature.

Evidence would be far more useful here and more in the spirit of this topic then one liners.

@Cenere
I looked over the other two links. The first one only seems to use the Bible as a reference to Jesus being real. As for the second if you look into the further reading it pretty much refutes the non Biblical evidence for Jesus. Historicity Of Jesus FAQ
Cenere
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Cenere
13,657 posts
Jester

@Cenere
I looked over the other two links. The first one only seems to use the Bible as a reference to Jesus being real. As for the second if you look into the further reading it pretty much refutes the non Biblical evidence for Jesus. Historicity Of Jesus FAQ

Didn't really read any of the links, if I have to admit it. I just saw the "give sources" and got that. Because I am lazy like that. The discussion has been going on over a few threads, so...
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

Didn't really read any of the links, if I have to admit it. I just saw the "give sources" and got that. Because I am lazy like that. The discussion has been going on over a few threads, so...


Yeah I know that's why I decided to try and bring it all together under one dedicated thread.
yielee
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yielee
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Shepherd

German3945-That video said that Jesus wasn't the first to take his life for a religion in a "resurrection" type of way.


No, it doesn't. You should watch all three videos so you'll get better idea!

@MageGreyWolf - It seems like the Skeptical Bible Study Videos are no good as a source because your looking for evidence that Jesus was real outside of the Holy Bible, right? if you're not, then I apologize, because there's Paul. But even so, if non-Biblical, then those videos just trying to say that the Gospels are contradictory because they don't agree on the years. That's not a contradiction, it's just not precise. There's a difference, and is someting YOU already have to accept when you agreed with the 30 years of gap or whatever that exists before it was wrote down.

Your other video is really bad, sorry. The Jesus Myth, I don't know why you would even put that one up. He's thinking backwards, like CNN was broadcasting in the ancient times and all the historians would sit down to watch the news that Jesus was healing, etc. That guy makes the LIFE-IS-LiKE-THIS-SO-LIFE-WAS-LIKE-THIS-BACK-THEN-TOO-ERROR! I liked this part also: "these are the historians alive around when Jesus existed...ALMOST NONE of them wrote about his existence, therefore he didn't exist." So he really goes overboard in his conclusions, like those other angry ranting sub-academic guys did in that earlier source.

I guess what's hard about this question is that Christians already believe, and it's hard to share the Bible with non-believers. And non-believers don't want to believe, so you have to go with non-Biblical sources, but a lot of those sources are so anti-Christian that they talk so much against Christ's divinity and think that means Jesus didn't exist. That's just stupid.

They also find the evidence about Jesus, but then they find some conspiracy theory and make there suspicions out to be fact. Bzzzz. Sorry, you can't do that. If your looking for evidence you have to take the evidence, you can't omit some because you THINK it MIGHT be tainted.

But even looking through there eyes it doesn't make sense. A lack of direct evidence still isn't evidence against. So they should look at the indirect evidence to get a better understanding. Like whether its possible that a man was a leader of a sect of Jews who was killed by Pilate. Or even whether there were groups of Jewish tribes that practiced mystic rituals similar to pagan beliefs of their day, &ect.

All I'm saying is that your sources keep ignoring the indirect evidence, and there's no reason for that cause if they concluded that there's no direct evidence then the next step is to look at indirect evidence that's all! Who was Paul?

Anyway, I think the show on Jesus in the National Geographic Channel will be good. I hope the three or four people actualy reading this thread will find time to watch it!
German3945
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Nomad

No, it doesn't. You should watch all three videos so you'll get better idea!

No, they specifically stated that Jesus knew that others had taken their own lives to try to help their religion, which is what (may have) given him the idea.
A lack of direct evidence still isn't evidence against. So they should look at the indirect evidence to get a better understanding.

quite the contrary. Indirect evidence needs to be interpreted, and with a subject like this indirect evidence is simply not enough. There are to many separate views to use indirect evidence as any form up support.
these are the historians alive around when Jesus existed...ALMOST NONE of them wrote about his existence, therefore he didn't exist.

well if Jesus was an amazing man that went around healing people's illnesses with no medical effort, and walking on water, then how is it that the large majority of historians were not enthralled and amazed?
It raises questions on the biblical depiction of Jesus.
a lot of those sources are so anti-Christian that they talk so much against Christ's divinity and think that means Jesus didn't exist.

well
1) no one believes Jesus didn't exist anymore, it's a question of the Jesus in the bible.
2) most outside sources are attempting their best to be non-biased and as fact-based as possible, and when in their facts they don't find evidence of a divine Christ they don't usually speak in favor of divinity.
notataco
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notataco
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Nomad

German3945 is right. Technically there is 2 Jesuses, but is supposed to be the same person. The jesus most think of is the son of god while not thought of is the more humanely jesus. Id like to think both are real and the same person even if the evidence is a bit foggy. And can we really rely on historians from over a thousand years ago? Who knows what happened back in the days of B.D.

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