Forums → WEPR → [redirected]If God created all things

If you forfeit, wave the white flag, and be proud. It's really aggravating when Christians walk away with their heads held high, when we've already beaten their assumptions down.

okay wave wave now gtfo and leave us alone

satan was an angel but then we whated to be like GOD and GOD did not like that.

okay wave wave now gtfo and leave us alone

Then y do u argue. your trying to falsify a religion based on your beliefs... in science. its cute, and its kinda a d'ck move. so yea sorry bud but thats how people take it.

satan was an angel but then we whated to be like GOD and GOD did not like that.

And to be clear I wasn't using that video as evidence but rather a point of reference to illustrate what I was saying (which is the case of virtually all the vids I have used). I started with the supposition that if God is in fact real and has done what is written in the Bible, is that being worth worshiping? So what does the Bible illustrate this being doing?
It shows a whole laundry list of atrocities that any alone should leave this being unworthy of being worshiped. Yet you excuse this behavior saying it was for the best. Looking at the replies on this subject the battered wife syndrome that Christians seem to suffer from this concept of God become glaringly apparent.
...and that became a much longer rant then I intended.

Umm and again all this is on the view point of the reader. You take it how you want to take it, and almost every single story is about God getting rid of the evil while saving the good. And really, with that, God is good, and always triumphs over evil. I hate using this, but i was watching supernatural the other day, and they kinda brought up a good idea. The angels were going to blow a whole town full of 1 thousand people away in order to stop something evil from happening. In order to save millions, and keep the good.
But it does seem logical. If God wants to save the good in the world he would destroy the evil.

Your comparing the oppression and in many cases abuse of another human being to the use of electricity? Acceptable or not to the masses if God saw this action as wrong then it should have been added in as God stating it to be wrong. Also (again assume the unlikely that his being is real) if God had done so he could have put a stop to it much sooner. Instead he had help create a tool that out right promoted it and was used to justify this action for years.

Yes because we want, and need electricity to live in these times. Back in the day, they wanted and needed slaves in order to survive... Because the rich wouldn't know how to handle themselves. And like i said before, he attacked the egyptians for slaving the isrealites. And he did it in a pretty harsh way as already stated, in order to attack against slavery.

And the destruction of countless babies and animals and...Or was it all babies and all but two of every animal also evil? Just wanted to point out the scope of this genocide.

Well if they were evil, i mean he allowed every single type of animal and person to live right? He could've just destroyed existance right then and there and killed everything. Not to mention, is it genocide if you create something and then decide you dont want it anymore. I mean if you created a type of race smaller than you, and you found out almost all of them were evil... And becoming not what you wanted them to be, would you not be angered? Since you made them, cant you just throw the ones you dont like out? I think people do that when they create drawings they dont like... But the fact is, were made from him, he made us like a painter paints drawing. So in my thoughts, hes allowed to do anything he wants with us really... He gave life he can take it away.

Don't hand me that free will tripe. If someone really cares about another they are going to step in and try to stop them from doing something they see as harmful.
Thinking about it where in the Bible does it say God won't interfere with free will? Because he seems to do it a whole heck of a lot interfering in the Bible.

I wasn't handing you the free will tripe. Im handing you the fact that god isn't a hypocrit. He hasn't gone back on his word, and free will is one of those things. He interferes by destroying evil, and helping the good thats it.

If you forfeit, wave the white flag, and be proud. It's really aggravating when Christians walk away with their heads held high, when we've already beaten their assumptions down.

Its because its a belief system u ignorant twit. You think that because a constant bash against religion causes us to just all of a sudden get off our seat, have a massive epiphany and then become and athiest. The fact is, becoming an athiest is the easiest possible solution to anything. Everybody questions there beliefs at one point, and for most christians out there, not one has even begun to question it because of what athiests bring up on this site. Basing your points on technicalities, some hyporitical arguements, and flaws in a couple stories, just kinda doesn't cut the cake. Cuz the fact is, science is on a whole different area than religion is. Even though many athiests try and make them in the same scope, it never will be. We hold are head high, because we dont care what you think, in fact its your belief and were understanding, as opposed to you. This is why we can hold our heads high every single arguement when we lose on a scientifical level. Because religion isn't science.

And haha a white flag.. Thats pretty. Or even better you guys could simply start pulling your noses out of where they dont belong. Thats a simple solution too =)

Umm and again all this is on the view point of the reader. You take it how you want to take it, and almost every single story is about God getting rid of the evil while saving the good.

Your comparing the oppression and in many cases abuse of another human being to the use of electricity?

And like i said before, he attacked the egyptians for slaving the isrealites. And he did it in a pretty harsh way as already stated, in order to attack against slavery.

Well if they were evil

is it genocide if you create something and then decide you dont want it anymore.

he made us like a painter paints drawing. So in my thoughts,

He gave life he can take it away.

I wasn't handing you the free will tripe. Im handing you the fact that god isn't a hypocrit. He hasn't gone back on his word, and free will is one of those things. He interferes by destroying evil, and helping the good thats it.

Its because its a belief system u ignorant twit.

This is why we can hold our heads high every single arguement when we lose on a scientifical level. Because religion isn't science.

So your saying killing countless people is a good thing? What if we applied this reasoning to anyone else?
For instance with this whole situation in the middle east with who knows how many terrorists coming from the extremist groups there. Would it be acceptable to just wipe everyone out accept a few who had the foreknowledge to get there @$$es out of there?

If it meant saving the world, then yes. If it means keeping the good in the world alive then yes. Dont get me wrong, if i could do anything i would try to stop it. But in all honesty, yes it would be acceptable. Billions is alot worse than thousands. This of course would only be applicable if the whole place was truely evil. That is the only reason God did it in the first place.

If you can't tell the difference between the use of electricity and the enslavement of another human your done in this debate.

If u cant tell the point im getting across your done in this debate... Its a matter of technical speaking.. And your debating about my religion, so basically screw off guy.. Its funny how athiests think they can boss everyone around because they think there so amazing. its cute.

All this does is show God showing favoritism. and really how justified are those methods?

Its a nice little circle we got going on here... You just decide to avoid an answer, and go straight into another attack. It doesn't show favoritism. And its lovely how you can say dont give me the free will tripe, yet all ive heard is justifying methods for like 5 pages. Dude ive told you already, and you just dodge the answers constantly, and then make up some other crap and then say i dont belong in this debate. Its going to constantly go on and on... its pathetic really

Let's say We demanded Korean people to live in a free nation. Would it be acceptable for us to tell Kim Jong that if he didn't do this we would come in and kill all the children in Korea?

Way to make it sound worse than it is.. And you call christians extreme.. Your the one who keeps talking about dead babies... our religion isn't based upon dead babies guy, but nice try at a horrible analogy. First off its the first born sons. First borns, not every single child. The reason, is because first borns tend to lead the chain in there family and become the next of kin... With it become the pharoah, or just someone high up in the family. Thats the reason.

Evil babies huh?

If all else fails... talk about babies. nice. Its cool, extremity is beautiful sometimes. Or we could also talk about the murderers, the serial killers, the rich stealing from the poor. Probably the people who ended up killing there own slaves cuz they thought it was fun. The r@pers, the child abusers, prostitutes, apocracies.... I dunno should i continue?

Yes it is.

lol *facepalm*.. not really but ok.

A good painter will continue to work on a painting until it's they want it, not just through it out

A good painter also knows which paintings are bad, and therefore throw em out. He also will keep working on them and try to make them right, but if in the end they still dont look very well... Um i guess byebye?

&quotut you into this world and I can take you out!" Not really what I would call a loving statement.

Well i dont think you'd love someone who cheated on you, disobeyed you, and basically showed they hated you, and without any apologizing or repenting... Yeah if the things i created were like that, id probably clean the slate, and start over also.

God kills people but killing is a sin God is suppose to be without sin so yeah, hypocrite. I have other examples like this as well.

Actually killing one another is a sin. Difference. He is a God and technically, he's able to do what ever he wants. Its a sin to kill one of our brothers, because it was God who created that person and your desecrating his work. It would be like a painter, being able to make changes to his artwork after it was complete, or even trash it. He's able to cuz its his. But if i was to come in there and scrible all over it, there would be a serious problem as its not mine, and he would probably take serious offense to it.

So far your the only ignorant one here, Your done.

Is this becoming a threat? your done. didn't know were in the sopranos all of a sudden. no bud your done. stop talking sh't about my religion guy, like honest to god. You might not understand in your little concept box you call a brain, but to many many people out there every athiest on this site is ignorant, arogant and basically bullying christians around. Sorry if i got your panties in a bunch (i could see that when you said ur done =)) but its the truth. Please say its no true thow, cuz it always helps your case when you say that .

Yes science helps us distinguish what's real and what's not religion doesn't care and blindly keeps going on treating falsified things as true. This only illustrates how detrimental religion is to the advancement of knowledge. And when it comes a theistic ignorance and intolerance your one of the worst I have seen on this site!

Good one. Its cuz i actually believe in something, and im not one of those other people out there that just turns over everytime someone tries to disprove a fact with turn arounds, and prinpricking through sentences. Sorry bud, but if were starting the your the worst game, your definately the worst at opening your mind to basically any concept outside your safety box of sceince. And the fact that your still trying to prove science is on the same realm of religion proves that.

If u cant tell the point im getting across your done in this debate.

For anyone who does not believe in God, I share this part of the Bible:

Isaiah 65

1) "I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me.
To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, 'Here am I, here am I.'

2) All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people,
who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations,

3) a people who continually provoke me to my very face, offering sacrifices in gardens and burning incense on altars of brick;

4) who sit among the graves and spend their nights keeping secret vigil; who eat the flesh of pigs, and whose pots hold broth of unclean meat;

5) who say,'Keep away; don't come near me, for I am too sacred for you!'
Such people are smoke in my nostrils, a fire that keeps burning all day."

6) "See, it stands written before me: I will not keep silent but will pay back in full; I will pay back into their laps,

7) both your sins and the sins of your fathers," says the LORD.
"Because they burned sacrifices on the mountains and defied me on the hills, I will measure into their laps the full payment for their former deeds."

8) This is what the LORD says:
"As when juice is still found in a cluster of grapes and men say, 'Don't destroy it, there is yet some good in it,' so will I do in behalf of my servants; I will not destroy them all.

9) I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, and from Judah those who will possess my mountains; my chosen people will inherit them, and there will my servants live.

10) Sharon will become a pasture for flocks, and the Valley of Achor a resting place for herds, for my people who seek me."

11) But as for you who forsake the LORD and forget my holy mountain, who spread a table for Fortune and fill bowls of mixed wine for Destiny,

12) I will destine you for the sword, and you will all bend down for the slaughter; for I called but you did not answer, I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me."

13) Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"My servants will eat, but you will go hungry, my servants will drink, but you will go thirsty, my servants will rejoice, but you will be put to shame.

14) My servants will sing out of the joy of their hearts, but you will cry out from the anguish of heart and wail in brokenness of spirit.

15) You will leave your name to my chosen ones as a curse; the Sovereign LORD will put you to death, but to his servants he will give another name.

16) Whoever invokes a blessing in the land will do so by the GOD of truth; he who takes an oath in the land will swear by the GOD of truth. For the past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from my eyes.

17) "Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

18) But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy.

19) I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more."

20) "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be thought accursed.

21) They will build houses and dwell in them; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

22) No longer will they build houses and others live in them, or plant and others eat. For as the days of a tree, so will be the days of my people; my chosen ones will long enjoy the works of their hands.

23) They will not toil in vain or bear children doomed to misfortune; for they will be a people blessed by the LORD, they and their descendants with them.

24) Before they call I will answer; while they are still speaking I will hear.

25) The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain,"


This last sentence flows into chapter 66 as Isaiah continues to prophesy the future. I could have used a period because the sentence is complete but I left it the way my (NIV) Bible did, with a comma.

I urge anyone who reads this and is curious about this chapter to continue reading 66. If you ask me on my profile I'll be happy to write it for you, I have several different versions of Bibles but I enjoy reading the NIV the most.

For anyone who does not believe in God, I share this part of the Bible:

Your claiming the use of electricity is the same as the use of slaves. This is a complete load of crap. Everyone of of your replies only serves to reinforce what I would consider moral bankruptcy from your religion.

actually im stating that the way we see electricity today, is the same way the rich back then saw slaves. A purpose for both needs and wants. Thats it. Not the fact that electricity is the same as a slave. Just that they provide our needs and wants. So if having electiricity was a sin, it would be complete wishwash in our era, and deemed incomprehendable..

wajor was there a point to all that?

Anyway...

1) "I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me.
To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, 'Here am I, here am I.'

who sit among the graves and spend their nights keeping secret vigil; who eat the flesh of pigs, and whose pots hold broth of unclean meat;

7) both your sins and the sins of your fathers," says the LORD.

The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain,"

Isaiah 65 was meant for everyone.
My point in using this chapter of the Bible was also to answer most of your previous questions to me:

God demands obedience, he doesn't ask us for it!

So far you seem to be making a point about free will but if God really wanted us to obey this kind of goes against the concept of free will. Now I know you may want to argue that God wanted us to do this freely but considering we are talking about a being who already knew this wouldn't happen making God seem kind of stupid here. He could have easily just instilled an overpowering desire to obey him into everyone so that while we would still be free no to obey we wouldn't want to.

Who are we to question the acts of God?

I would questions the acts of anyone who would consider mass genocide as a good solution to a problem.

Furthermore He didn't wipe all of humanity off the face of the earth!

He left 8 people and 2 of each animal alive and killed the rest how humane of him...

Pharaoh had been warned and plagued until God had to prove that His people would be set free. The window of questioning the power of God was over and along with it the window of opportunity for Pharaoh to renounce his false gods and worship the God of Israel.

The Jews were spared this curse of death by painting blood above the doors of all of their homes. Today this is still called 'the Passover' because the angel of death passed over the Children of God.

How does any of this justify the killing of children?

Men created the institute of slavery, not God. Roman guards were converted because of Paul's incarceration.
The Bible isn't written to entertain us, it's a blueprint of how God expects His people to control our natural desire to sin.

Again this doesn't cover anything. Unless your trying to say the parts about slavery were inserted by humans without anything to do with God. Which goes against this part of your post.

Jesus' replaces this guilt. He doesn't desire that anyone should feel guilt of any type. The choice is ours. Some people choose to spend 40 years wandering around the same mountain. It's totally unnecessary today.

Not talking about feeling guilty but being blamed which bleeds into the next point.

Being punished for sins my great-grandfather did is no longer needed when Jesus shed His blood for the sin of every human, once and for all.

Neither of which should have been needed in the first place. The fact that God did require this only supports my argument.

Genesis 3:22-23
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

By the sound of it God didn't want us to be all we could be so he booted us not for the knowledge we gained but to prevent us from achieving immortality. It would seem God is just being oppressive here.

All this does is show God showing favoritism. and really how justified are those methods?

Yeah still waiting for that knock on the door. If God really wants me to believe he exists he can come to my door and demonstrate to me he is who he says he is in a way that I can be reasonably sure I'm not hallucinating or being deceived.

Wajor said that God will show himself to those who dont ask...

1) "I revealed myself to those who did NOT ask for me; I was found by those who did NOT seek me.
To a nation that did NOT call on my name, I said, 'Here am I, here am I.'

So in this case alone.. Because your asking for him to show himself, he will not.
Also why would God show himself to you, out of everyone possible? You don't believe in him, or even want to try and open your mind to him. So even if he did show himself to you, your simple counter arguement would be that you were hallucinating, or that someone dressed up like God and went to your door, or that you had some bad food, causing you to not feel well and imagine something.


So God will significantly change the genetics of at least wolves, lions, and snakes huh?

im thinking sarcasm??? If not... Um basically those animals caused damages back then. Wolves would eat lambs, lions would attack ox, and snakes were considered scavengers and evil... Since dust is disgusting, i suppose it was a punishment.. As it was the snake that tempted adam and eve...