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DrCool1
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DrCool1
210 posts
Bard

Here is something to get the brain going. It's been said that God created ALL things. Also it's been said that God is 100 precent pure/good. So God created man and it was said that because of man's sinful actions bad/evil things were created. But if God created ALL things then God created bad/evil things, not man. So by God creating bad/evil things this does not make him 100 precent pure/good.

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samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

So your saying my parents had no choice in the matter to conceive me?
That kinda sounds like god is some kind of sick pervert who has control of everything. That leads me to the point that if we have no free will, God intentionally creates people to burn in hell.


Don't take my quotes out of context >.>

Going back to biology there are literally millions upon millions of ways that human genetics can alter from the same two parents. God could control what genetic information goes into the birth of a child and could control when fertilization occurs. Can a human control these thing? No. Therefore God would not be touching free will.

what does this have to do with god


God
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

You start small. NEVER read the Old Testament the first time you read the bible. Start with a gospel (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) and slowly work your way through the rest of the New Testament. The Holy Spirit can easily intercede and help in understanding of the text; and the New Testament is never contested as being true by the Christian community. Imagine it as our evolution, there's a few factions that violently disagree but they never provide good reason.


So, let's suppose I was a god and I had my own version of a bible.

"He took a bat and beat the homeless man's face in."

It sounds bad, but with the Holy Spirit helping you, you will understand that I wasn't talking about beating a homeless man's face in. In all reality, I was talking about caring for the homeless with a stable attitude.

It's not a matter of the bible sounding confusing. It's a matter of the bible contradicting itself. It's a matter of the bible saying things that you don't agree with. The holy spirit isn't guiding you to understand the bible any better, you are simply refusing to accept that God breaks his own rules.

Here's what I don't get. If you are a good person who chooses not to believe in God, you go to hell. If he is such a loving God, why doesn't he show mercy to those who don't believe in him? Let's face it, God is VERY vague when it comes to his existence. In fact, the only link between God and reality is the bible. Without the bible, there would be no faith, no belief, no prayer. So surely an all powerful and fair God would understand why people would doubt him, because it is so easy for them to do. Those people who choose not to believe in God aren't stupid, for many brilliant people are atheist or agnostic.

Also, it's hard to simply believe in something. If I don't believe in God, why should I go to hell for something I simply believe (or don't believe) in? It's not that I'm choosing not to believe in God. It's not something that can be helped. If God is real, and someone doesn't believe in him, how is it fair to send that person to hell when they simply don't see the evidence to believe in him? It's not like they are intentionally trying to harm God or disobey him.

Let's say you do believe in the bible. Every time you run into something you don't like, you change its meaning. The one lady who looked back upon a burning village was turned to a pillar of salt. All she did was look at the village. Suppose I had a son. What would you think if I stabbed him in the heart simply because wore a blue shirt when I distinctly told him to wear a red one?

Moses was protected as he floated down the river. He grew up to become a messenger of God. He stood up to the pharaoh TEN TIMES, demanding that his people be freed. Moses helped protect the Jews from each and every plague. Moses lead his people out of Egypt. Moses brought the 10 commandments to his people. Moses scolded those who worshiped a golden ox.

Moses taps a rock so that water may flow from it. It doesn't happen the first time so Moses tries again. He didn't do it because he was trying to despise God, he did it because it didn't work the first time. God tells Moses "I told you to hit the rock ONCE. Because you have disobeyed me (despite that it wasn't your intention to do so), I shall not allow you to enter the promised land.

What a dick move.
samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

"He took a bat and beat the homeless man's face in."

It sounds bad, but with the Holy Spirit helping you, you will understand that I wasn't talking about beating a homeless man's face in. In all reality, I was talking about caring for the homeless with a stable attitude.


The thing is, nothing in the bible is this vague; at least in context.

It's not a matter of the bible sounding confusing. It's a matter of the bible contradicting itself. It's a matter of the bible saying things that you don't agree with. The holy spirit isn't guiding you to understand the bible any better, you are simply refusing to accept that God breaks his own rules.


That's simply not true. Could you give me an example?

Here's what I don't get. If you are a good person who chooses not to believe in God, you go to hell.


Oh lack of knowledge about Christianity.
1. You cannot be a "good person" each of us is tainted by sin to an extreme amount.
2. God does not send people to hell; hell will feel like a relief to the immense feeling of shame you will feel before God.

So surely an all powerful and fair God would understand why people would doubt him, because it is so easy for them to do.


Doubt is created by faith as cold is created by hot correct? Everywhere in the bible when someone is saved it's by faith and not by works. Faith is what saves us and further is what removes the presence of sin from us. This is what allows us to go to heaven; the absence of sin.

The one lady who looked back upon a burning village was turned to a pillar of salt. All she did was look at the village.


God forbade her to look back; she looked back. When our actions go against the law our we not punished? You may say that this punishment is too harsh but sin is the great equalizer. Sin is sin there are no levels.

Moses taps a rock so that water may flow from it. It doesn't happen the first time so Moses tries again. He didn't do it because he was trying to despise God, he did it because it didn't work the first time. God tells Moses "I told you to hit the rock ONCE. Because you have disobeyed me (despite that it wasn't your intention to do so), I shall not allow you to enter the promised land.


A very interesting story I'll admit. The best answer I can give you is that it's used to illustrate just how responsible Christian leaders must be. Moses knew that he was promised heaven, I'm sure he didn't mind.
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

For this...

Oh lack of knowledge about Christianity.
1. You cannot be a "good person" each of us is tainted by sin to an extreme amount.
2. God does not send people to hell; hell will feel like a relief to the immense feeling of shame you will feel before God.


and this...

Doubt is created by faith as cold is created by hot correct? Everywhere in the bible when someone is saved it's by faith and not by works. Faith is what saves us and further is what removes the presence of sin from us. This is what allows us to go to heaven; the absence of sin.


...to work, you need to believe in God in the first place. If you don't believe in God and you don't believe these are the laws of life, then what is there to bring you to believe these things other than the bible?

God forbade her to look back; she looked back. When our actions go against the law our we not punished? You may say that this punishment is too harsh but sin is the great equalizer. Sin is sin there are no levels.


Do you believe God should have punished her in such way? Or is it a sin to disagree with God and his actions?

A very interesting story I'll admit. The best answer I can give you is that it's used to illustrate just how responsible Christian leaders must be. Moses knew that he was promised heaven, I'm sure he didn't mind.


So Moses was punished for making a mistake? The promised land was not referring to heaven either. The promised land, if I remember correctly, was a town full of regular people. The children of Moses's generation fought and conquered this town and overcame the strong guards. God allowed his people to conquer land owned by those who didn't even threaten Moses?

It's been a while since I heard this story. So I could be wrong.

That's simply not true. Could you give me an example?


Ok.

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

--

PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1CO 1 "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

--

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

--

GE 11:7-9 God sows discord.
PR 6:16-19 God hates anyone who sows discord.

I pulled most of these off websites. God Seems to change his mind a lot when it comes to what is and is not acceptable.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (New International Version)

34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Women can't speak in church.

If you're going to own a slave, you might as well do it according to the bible.

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

And if your slave misbehaves:

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

If the bible is absolute truth that is not subject to change in time, then God does not look down upon those who own slaves. If this part of the bible is outdated, then how do you know that the whole thing isn't out dated? For if you admit even one part of the bible as being outdated, then you must admit that the bible is not the truth, at least, not all of it.
thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Farmer

Most priests will tell you that to be Christian, you have to choose to believe all of the Bible. All of it. If you have to choose all or nothing, why not for the truthfulness of the Bible? It's a package deal, right? It's like a team - it's only as good as its weakest link.

thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Farmer

Also, that was meant as something to think about, not a serious point for a debate >_>

wolf1991
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wolf1991
3,437 posts
Farmer

The problem with Christianity is the number of sects it has. Each sect has it's own requirements for heaven. Some allow this idea of a "good" person and some condemn it. The question soon becomes which version of Christianity is the correct one?

Asherlee
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Asherlee
5,001 posts
Shepherd

What happened to the debate I started last night? It is really frustrating when points are brought up on one side and the other side just ignores it.

Page 141, or 142 I think?

deserteagle
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deserteagle
1,633 posts
Nomad

Going back to biology there are literally millions upon millions of ways that human genetics can alter from the same two parents. God could control what genetic information goes into the birth of a child and could control when fertilization occurs. Can a human control these thing? No. Therefore God would not be touching free will.


genetics doesn't work like that. If the human race was made from two people, we would all be dead. Think of it as the same reason why the government outlaws inbreeding. *you marrying your sister*
It creates a lack of new genes and the defective genes get amplified. An example would be the Romanov family's hemophilia. The Russian Czars would often bear children who died due to generations of almost no genetic variability.

We can artificially inseminate and clone animals. The thing about God picking which genes are selected is like saying God controls the roll of the dice, or the draw of the deck. God doesn't control luck nor probability.

Like the Bible verses noname!
thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Farmer

I have a question for those that follow the Bible. I am assuming that most of you associate with the King James version, if not, please let me know the version. Whatever the case, it is a fact that all the modern versions of the Bible have been whittled down and modified to fit a certain way.

With this in mind, how can you use the Bible as any kind of credible reference? Here is an example of one of the cut gospels. These non-canonical gospels are just as legitimate as the modern ones.

But the son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Joseph; and he took a branch of a willow and dispersed the waters which Jesus had gathered together. 2 And when Jesus saw what was done, he was wroth and said unto him: O evil, ungodly, and foolish one, what hurt did the pools and the waters do thee? behold, now also thou shalt be withered like a tree, and shalt not bear leaves, neither root, nor fruit. 3 And straightway that lad withered up wholly, but Jesus departed and went unto Joseph's house. But the parents of him that was withered took him up, bewailing his youth, and brought him to Joseph, and accused him 'for that thou hast such a child which doeth such deeds.'

P.S. I am not intending this as a stab, I would just like to know the opinions on this.


There's what Ash brought up. Samy responded, but he kinda dodged, so there it is for ya. I personally know that there were at one time like 20 gospels, but between the dawn of Christianity and the Middle Ages, 8 of them, including gospels of Judas and Mary, were filtered out. Just adding something to what Ash was saying.
samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

It's late and I'm planning on extensively going over the verses you put up Noname for both of our benefits-always good to challenge what you believe or don't believe for that matter. I'm generally sure my entire argument will center around context but whatever.

Hell I'll even put aside my differences to get Andrake banned he's getting annoying.

thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Farmer

If Andrake gets banned, make sure you guys ban his other account, chidori360. kthx.

Samy, also please respond to the thing about the other gospels. Do you think it'll be important to translate, restore, and publish them? There're at least two significant pieces of Christianity that've been tossed out.

314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

I've been staying on topic this whole time. And you're trolling by getting off topic by what you just said now.


You send short answers, most of them just agreeing to what someone else said. You have said nothing constructive, and have just plain been annoying. Example:"I have no idea what you saying but ok.after the 1st paragraph i lost you haha"


And a question for Biblical censorship, why is the word that Christians believe as completely true edited, to the extent of removing a good percent?
samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

And a question for Biblical censorship, why is the word that Christians believe as completely true edited, to the extent of removing a good percent?


Because the rest of the bible isn't God breathed and some of it wasn't included in sources such as the Dead Sea scrolls making it historically incorrect. For the books that were included but aren't any longer it's believed that they didn't come from God or are false.


On my point.
thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Farmer

Because the rest of the bible isn't God breathed and some of it wasn't included in sources such as the Dead Sea scrolls making it historically incorrect. For the books that were included but aren't any longer it's believed that they didn't come from God or are false.


Dude, I'm talking abut verified, legitimate gospels that used to be in the Bible but were taken out to reshape Christianity. Also, the gospel of Judas wasn't mentioned at all in that article, meaning both your point and that source are moot in this discussion.
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